Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

If she is intelligent and 20yrs I would imagine that she knew the risks ( we would have discussed them much earlier) - therefore I would be disappointed if she went ahead with so little regard for her own safety.

Discussed them in talking about sex- not as a career in prostitution!

1. Most women and men in marriages increasinly these days earn similar amounts but there is a huge minority of women who do marry men with good prospects as they want to live off male earnings and sadly a good few who divorce if he loses his job. Indeed one of the few ways out of poverty for a pretty slim young girl with no qualifications is to latch on to a David Hasselhoff or footballer. Some of them find it easier to make with the hair straightener and fake tan than achieve straight As and take a first in medicine at Oxford.#

Thankfully increasingly this is changing an dof course most women are only average and not wanted by rich men and secondly the average pay of men and women is under £25k so most people have to latch on to a partner with not money and lead happy lives notwithstanding.

1. Many many more men want more sex than women ever give credit for. I wish I had £500 for every man I've been in touch with after divorce who cites lack of sex in marriage as a major issue for him. Of coruse sometimes it's th eother way round but I remain convinced there is a male not female "sex deficit" but thankfully not in all marriages - which is why men often have to pay for it either by using someone who charges or buying clothes and dinners.

1. I have always been quite amused that the higher paid escorts earn the same per hour as I do. Is there really a difference? Each of us hire ourselves out by the hour?

1. Of course we all accept there are damaged women involved in much of prostitution who are doing it to fund a drug habit but that can be addressed by cleaning that up not making it illegal for men or women to pay for sex. Lots of divorced men say they paid very heavily for the sex they had with their ex wife given the cost of the divorce to them.

"Many many more men want more sex than women ever give credit for. I wish I had £500 for every man I've been in touch with after divorce who cites lack of sex in marriage as a major issue for him"

And I wish I had £500 for every woman who after divorce cites lack of husband involvement in housework, childcare as well as emotional detachment as a major issue for her.

It's bollocks to say women don't want sex as much as men. IMVPO, they just need more warming up than men do and they find it hard to be turned on by a husband who they're pissed off at. If these men put a bit more effort into their relationships with their wives they wouldn't need to get it elsewhere.

Perhaps if these men put the same time & money into their relationships with their wives, as they do paying for prostitutes (and keeping secret) then they might have better relationships and sex with their wives.

But I suspect that men like interestedpunter just prefer to pay women for sex, and of course to listen to him drone on for 10 hours because he knows that most rl women would tell him to shut the fuck up.

I am certainly not an apologist for adulterers and probably turn down a married man every 2 weeks on average. I need medal from wives bestowed on to me for being so good.... Mind you I am sure the men concerned just go elsewhere. My only point is that there is a male sex deficit which is men sometimes have to pay and women rarely do. If there were more equality in all this it would be as many women paying as men surely.

@exoticfruits
It offends you that Xenia's views on married women equate to prostitution, yet you state in your post that you hope your daughter would 'have more self respect' than to sell her body.
You are as guilty as stereotyping as Xenia.
Why would you assume that use pro's have no self respect?

I find the following scripture very interesting and perhaps it helps to explain where our idea's about superiority between the sexes stems from;

'I shall greatly increase your pain of your pregnancy,
in birth pangs you will bring forth children,
And your craving will be for your husband,
And he will dominate you."

Gen 3:16

Avaboos, I agree that our patriarchal concepts are linked to Abrahamic religions, but where did theirs come from? (If you say, "God", this conversation ends! )

Hi ? am extremely short of time, so just going to respond to Avaboosmummy for now ? because I want to pick up on the Max Nordau quote, which is really interesting (and I apologise for going back several pages, but I haven't had time before now). Re-quoting:

'A woman who sells herself to buy bread for her aged mother or her child, stands upon a higher moral plane than the blushing maiden who marries a money bag, in order to gratify her frivolous appetite for parties and travel. Of two men, he is the less deceived, the more logical and rational, who pays his companion of an hour in cash, each time, than he who gets a companion for life by the marriage contract, whose society was purchased as much as in the former case. Every alliance between man and woman in which either one is influenced by the substantial or selfish advantage to be gained by it, is prostitution.'
Max Nordau

I wondered about this, because I had to wonder about the context. It seems it was written in 1883, when women had little or no economic or educational opportunities, and it is part of a book which criticises, rather than seeks to uphold, the existing social order (Conventional Lies of our Civilisation). Nordau is not condoning prostitution, but rather arguing that women should have access to the same economic and educational opportunities as men, and that couples should marry and be intimate for love, and not to uphold a status quo which relies on women?s lack of equality.

It is not an argument for prostitution but an argument to improve the conditions which create it, however you define it.

Second point, the quote you gave puts the woman who prostitutes herself for gain at the centre of the argument, as the one doing the deceiving; whereas the chapter as a whole considers men and women both, and the man is as much a deceiver, and social expectations force them both into that position ? another part of the quote you have given is:

?The poor girl pretends affection for the money-bag, the wooer makes a false display of love for the gold fish he has caught. Nature and truth can celebrate at least one melancholy victory: that the corrupt egotism which has diverted marriage from its natural goal, recognizes and accepts its real moral and physiological significance, by assuming in its wooing the mask of love?.

Much has changed in the last hundred years, women have access to employment and education and marriage is seen in a different way. Using this quote means that one has to acknowledge that prostitution is not a relationship of equals, but a product of societally approved, gendered inequality, and engaging in prostitution perpetuates that inequality. That is how Nordau intended it to be read, as part of the wider book.

I'm guessing that you agree with me, from what you have posted, about inequality, but you figure that we can't change it?

People intersted in this area might like to read the book The Origins of Sex written by an Oxbridge academic. He looks at the period in the UK particularly from about year 1000 to the 1800s and how views changed over that period as to marriage, sex, adultery, prostituion and the like.

I don't think we need to go into Genesis in this. Man has always wanted to blame women for all ills. Using your sexuality by improving your chances in the marriage market and also by selilng your body for sex are two of the major ways women have always made money and got ahead. It woudl be great if women were as likely as men to pay for sex (and all women earned 10x their husband and paid out to them on divorce as I did) but we are not quite at that point yet.

OldLadyKnowsNothing
I'm assuming when you say 'where did theirs come from' you mean the beliefs of Abrahamic religion?
I do believe in God, so I believe that is where it comes from.
Maybe if Adam had eaten the forbidden fruit first then we would have a different world entirely. But this depends on your personal belief system.

"It is not an argument for prostitution but an argument to improve the conditions which create it."

I think that's the crux of the matter. Until the sexes are equal prostitution will always be problematic.

Women have always been in a double bind. In the past they've been forced to rely on their sexuality to get ahead, as Xenia points out, but at the same time they've been vilified for it, blamed for teasing and tempting men, or for using them for their money. Hardly fair when they had no access to money of their own.

Today, we have punters like Interested who seem to have more respect for prostitutes (although not to the extent of embracing it as an occupation for himself or his daughter) but I suspect that were Interested a punter in Victorian times he would be dismissing prostitutes as immoral whilst simultaneously benefiting from their services.

Avaaboosmummy, I was interested by your bible quote too- do you think that an unequal status in society is something that women deserve? Or that it has always been thus, and so always will be?

Avaboos, yes, that's what I meant.

I'm surprised Interested would not encourage his daughter into prostitution as he considers it a career worthy of him being a client. After all, think what she could learn from him - he could explain to her how to say all the right things, how to really turn men on, how to make all the best moves, how to please a punter, how to maximise her earnings etc.

Sorry Interested - I was honestly prepared to really open my mind to your side of the argument (which I was I have not contributed to this thread until now but preferred only to listen to the two sides in the debate) until I heard a) you would try and discourage your daughter and b) you would not be prepared to be penetrated yourself by a stranger.

This is because you are making the point that something is entirely acceptable except it is not really acceptable for a loved one and b) not acceptable to yourself unless you are the dominant position being the one in control.

I am not sure what I would call your attitude as I can't find a suitable word to describe it.

Sorry grimbletart just popped in quickly for lunch

Where did I say the b) point you refer to (people are making things up again)

and I believe I already explained that there are a lot of jobs I would discourage my daughter from doing - not just prostitution but that does not equate to it being "not really acceptable" for my daughter. If my daughter did choose to go into prostitution I would certainly give her the best business and safety advice I could which would include (because I am guessing what the next question is going to be) ensuring that she only does what she is comfortable doing and always making sure she is control.

Summerflower
I have read a little of Max Nordau and think his opinions and views are very interesting for someone writing at the time.
I don't believe prostitution perpetuates inequality, because it is back to point of who decided that during the act of prostitution the woman is unequal?
I for one do not feel unequal as I'm sure many other working girl's would agree.
Regardless of how conditions have improved for women it does not change men's views by simply making them conform, we cannot legislate against prejudice in this way otherwise we would be living in an Orwellian world.
Personally if I am told I have to do something I don't like I'm more likely to garner further resentment rather than embrace whatever is I've been told to do.
I do agree about inequality, as to whether we can change it, sadly I feel we can't, because although feminism will argue for equality in terms of pay, education, employment perhaps it also further harms the qualities and importance of child raising and bearing and just how much strength, diplomacy and patiance it requires to raise a well balanced person.
I think it's funny that we don't see men up in arms about their right to stay at home with the kids, probably because they know it's much harder then a 9 - 5.
Yet by women jumping up and down saying I want this that and the other, it's almost like we are doing ourselves a disservice rather than asking for true recognition of where our feminine qualities lie.

Let's talk about your son interestedpunter. So, he's down on his luck and without a job and a home. You've divorced his mother, and everythings gone a bit pear-shaped for him. Poor lad feels estranged from his loved ones for whatever reason.

An older, richer, more powerful man approaches him- and offers him a moderate/large sum of money to be anally penetrated. Do you think your son would be on an equal footing to the punter? Is it a fair and equal transaction?

SabrinaMulhollandJones
I've spent a lot of time wondering about inequality, I went to an all girls' school and at the time we were told 'you can have it all', now I truely believe that as women we really can't.
Digressing slightly but I believe during last year the head of the Independent Schools Trust also agreed with this and there were a number of newspaper articles that discussed this issue.

I don't think women deserve to be treated as unequal but I do think that there are a whole raft of reasons why they are and to argue that criminalising this that or the other doesn't tackle such a huge chasm of prejudice that takes in the entire world in various contexts.

I don't always think scripture can be taken literally but just find it interesting that something written so long ago perhaps holds the answers.

Perhaps because the failings of the first man were due to a woman, and in that context you can perhaps read that the male in this scenario is actually the weaker of the two.

"I don't believe prostitution perpetuates inequality,"
and
"I for one do not feel unequal as I'm sure many other working girl's would agree."

Ava, putting aside the issue of forced prostitution, you may believe that prostitution does not perpetuate inequality for prostitutes but it sure as hell perpetuates inequality for women.

You are putting wives and girlfriends in a position of inequality with their partners.

So modern society should be influenced by moral metaphors written well over a thousand years ago?
Anyway I am quite sure the general message in the bible is that prostitution is not a good thing, so I do not quite understand how you reconcile your beliefs with your current job, avaboos?
You also still have not answered my earlier question about whether you underwent (physical/emotional/sexual)abuse as a child and/or adolescence?

Avaboosmummy, if you feel equal during the process of selling your body to the man who is buying it, who am I to argue with that?

However, at a societal level, those entering prostitution are mainly female, they often come from poor or disadvantaged backgrounds, they are mainly young, and frequently have a background of abuse or addiction, and I would think that they are more likely to be exposed to sexual violence once they enter prostitution. You can not say the same for the men purchasing their services.

If you as an individual participate in something which is inherently unequal, I struggle to see how you can be an equal partner. But I recognise that we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

The reason I think prostitution perpetuates inequalities is because it does nothing to address the reasons why women enter prostitution (poverty, lack of alternative opportunities, abuse and addiction), but rather it offers up ?sex work? as a means of making a living and upholds the status quo (which is men?s right of access to women?s bodies, and wider social inequalities which result in women being more at risk of poverty etc).

As an aside, I think there are lots of feminists in the past who have argued for women?s equality as mothers, by the way, and not necessarily seen it as only achievable by emulating men.

Avaboosmummy, here's a question - if you felt that women were equal to men, that they could have it all (just maybe the 'all' needed to be re-defined and seen as a joint effort), that women were worthy of as much respect as men, would you still see prostitution as acceptable?

Or is the root of your belief that really women are not equal and therefore can be used by men, and if you can get some money out of being used, that helps a bit to restore the balance?

Because I am confused as to how on one hand you can recognise inequality and prejudice, but on the other, assert your equality in a transaction based on exploitation and prejudice.

messyisthenewtidy

I have to disagree, because not all men use prostitutes or have affairs or think of their partners as unequal.
We are constantly surrounded by images of attractive women that give the impression of how women should be/look to women and men.
I don't believe prostitution is that obvious to those that aren't looking for it or happen to be driving through a red light district.
I believe the world we live in sadly brings us to think as long as we have the money we can have what we like, recently the couple who have the Indian woman as a surrogate yet appear to not give a damn about her.
We live in a world where (depending on where you live) whether you live or die depends on your bank balance.
To say it perpetuates inequality for women is to assume that all prostitutes are women, yes the majority are but look at other countries and the numbers of males are higher, ie Thailand, India.