Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

grimbletart - go back and read my response to SabrinaMulhollandJones question about what my son should do if he was propositioned. Same would apply if I was propositioned and needed to earn some money. I'd do what I was comfortable with and expect nothing more or less from anyone I ask to provide any service to me.

Beach, I'm kind of betting that interestedpunter won't click on your links - the stories in your actual post will probably see to that. Punters dont like to face up to stories like these, stories that can't be shrugged off as 'a tiny proportion of trafficked women'.

But interested, I think you should click on the thank you letter from the escort.

Oh, I don't doubt you are right on that SabrinaMulhollandJones.

Johns aren't known for their honesty, or interest in prostituting women, as real people.

They are more known for being, at best, deluded entitled hypocrites. At worst rapists and participants in human trafficking. They are usually both though.

Anyway I suspect interestedpunter would rather boast about 10 hour punts, and tell us how he made an about turn on thinking prostitutes were scummy druggies when he discovered that punting is 'brilliant', than read something the women in question haven't been paid to say.

Do you think interested has payed the ex/escorts on this thread Beachcomber ?

SabrinaMulhollandJones I will look at the links when I have time, although, I understand that Belle de Jour's blogs are fairly extensive and I don't think I would be in a position to comment until I have read them all. Extreme feminists have a habit of twisting statistics, quotes and other writings in a way that favours their views. Hope you don't object to me being a bit cynical and taking my time.

Yes, he started off 'poor little me, my beautiful adored wife won't give me sex' but soon grew into the unapologetic 'i told her I would be unfaithful and that I'm leaving as soon as the kids are 18' .

Sounds such a nice chap. I expect he is about as considerate to the girls he sees as he is to his wife.

I dunno getmorenappies.

I suspect the answer to that question may lie in these words;

This thing of mine is being discussed on four different escorting websites at the moment, in Ireland, the US and `Canada. In all of them the same result; Punters read the blog, either get very very angry or are a bit shocked. In all cases a few escorts have replied saying things like ?Oh poor her, but I?m fine and happy and love my clients? etc etc. I understand; they need to protect their business, they can?t have guys feeling guilty about what they?re doing. Instantly the punters are feeling happy again. A few years ago I would have been saying that kind of thing too.

It's all part of the illusion, isn't it?

This illusion that interestedpunter holds so dear: I don't think punters see the vulnerable women that you speak about in prostitution that much so its from that standpoint difficult for us to see justification in your argument. The demand for "vulnerable women" is not that great in my experience.

When of course anyone with a little empathy and sense of humanity knows that the reality is this.

Puts one of one's orgasm though if one doesn't keep up the illusion. Can't have that!

I'd do what I was comfortable with and expect nothing more or less from anyone I ask to provide any service to me.

So what exactly would you be comfortable doing Interested as a prostitute?

And how do you know for sure that the person you are being serviced by is comfortable with what she is doing for you. How far do you go to check and how do you ensure she is telling the truth and not simply desperate for money?

Interestedpunter - it isn't Belle de Jour's blog.

It is another woman's blog.

Not all blogs by escorts are written by the same woman.

HTH.

(I'd have thought you would have heard of her BTW - you johns on p u n t e r n e t don't like her at all.)

He can't grimbletart, just as realitychecker can't. Nor can any punter - they can't all be paying belle de jour.

interestedpunter

I don't I have said that I think infidelity in marraige is wrong. I think I have said that men often don't consider seeing prostitutes as cheating, when, in fact no matter how they dress it up, it is. And the worst kind of betrayal too. People don't generally plan an affair, it something that happens. Often boundaries get crossed and people get close and things happen.people get drunk and have one nights. None of this is ok if you are meant to be committed to another person.

Paying for sex is waaay different. Its premediated. A man either plans to visist a brothel or searches online. And usually walks in stone cold sober and asks for a sexual service. No accident. Planned.

A single man seeing a prostitute who is doing it of her own free will is 'fine' in my opinion. However., I am interested still in what drives men to do this as an easy option.

Married men should get out if there is a problem in the marriage. Unless the wife agrees to an open relationship of course. Deceiving is never ok. Even if the partner is in the wrong. Now if you are telling the truth about your wife that she won't have sex at a young age(I'm guessing similar to you) and refuses to see a problem or want to change, then there is something v. Wrong. Either she .

hates you, doesn't fancy you or is depressed in some way.

Sorry that was very messy, I'm on my phone!

Btw the way, interested punter, did your wife really promise you great sex if you got married? Seems a very odd thing to say. I'm the same age as you and I wouldn't promise him great sex to marry me! Like some bargaining tool. Were you such a prize husband?! And what did you promise her?

I'm wondering why she would say that to you? Was it because the sex wasn't great before marriage? In which case, why would you ever think it would improve? Or was it because it was great and she wanted it to stay that way?

Btw, apart from the fact that you are deceiving your wife at all you're honest that your marriage has had it. Better than the men who say they love and adore their wives but still pay for sex. I was just initially very confuswed by you calling her beautiful.

sabrina if you think interested sounds like a nice chap, well he is compared to some on grunternet.

I read one blokes story and it started off all woe is me and that he was a pensioner, basically with a wife he adored but wouldn't have sex. Or occasionally did have sex but went through the motions and basically found sex and bodily fluids yuck.

I almost fely sorry for this sad man until his posts continued. He got very nasty and it all came out that he had actually paid for sex years before meeting his wife. He sounded vile.
So all the I've been driven to it but my cruel wife doesn't generally wash with me. If these men are telling the whole truth and the woman puts a stop to sex for. No reason that I sympathise but how often is this in reality?

If my dp stopped wanting sex, didn't want to address it and didn't care that I wanted it or he didn't miss intimacy himself, then I wouldn't believe he loved me and I wouldn't consider it to be a happy relationship. I would not want to stay with someone that treated me that way.

I see this has moved....not. Still no considered debate, little in the way of intelligent analysis, no chance of anyone talking about the chance of changing things. It's as if the anti group know they have no chance of banning prostitution so they make themselves feel better by saying the same things on countless threads, although this one has delivered a sacrificial punter.

Too bad we're not up to your standards LeithLurker

This pretty much sums up my analysis of why johns should be treated as criminals/sexual predators.

The Demand for Victims of Sex Trafficking Donna M. Hughes Professor & Eleanor M. and Oscar M. Carlson Endowed Chair Women?s Studies Program University of Rhode Island

I agree LeithLurker. It's just turned into charactor assasination.

They are not going to get it banned so it's a fairly pointless thread. In fact they have now seen women on the thread who are not doing too badly out of it and a man kindly explaining how it is for him and indeed will be for many other men including no doubt countless mumsnetters husbands who never tell them. People may not like it but it is the oldest profession and is unlikely ever to go away entirely although I would imagine without having any evidence for that that all the new websites for married men and women who want affairs might reduce demand a little.

How do you know prostitution is the "oldest profession" Xenia There is no evidence of that.

And I see the thread title is "should it be illegal for men to pay..." not "let's vote to have it be banned"

He can't grimbletart, just as realitychecker can't. Nor can any punter - they can't all be paying belle de jour.

Indeed: I guess I was trying to see if he could/would actually ask himself - "how can I be absolutely sure this person is doing what she is comfortable with?"

Because if he says he can be sure I want to now how he can be sure, and if he says he can't then I want to know how he can, as a human being, still use prostitutes?

I also asked what he would be comfortable with doing if he were a prostitute because if he would not be comfortable being a prostitute I struggle to see how he could be comfortable using one.

I just find his reams and reams of rationalisation packed with defensiveness as if, deep down, he is really trying to justify something that a little corner of his mind tells him is actually not very easy to justify.

Yes, I totally agree grimbletart.

Beachcomber
You seem very bitter about your experiences, as does the person writing the blog. However it does not mean all escorts end up feeling this way.
I presume from your reference to 'Johns' and your research quoted as University of Rhode Island, your experience was gained in the US?

"I understand; they need to protect their business, they can?t have guys feeling guilty about what they?re doing. Instantly the punters are feeling happy again. A few years ago I would have been saying that kind of thing too.

It's all part of the illusion, isn't it?"

How patronising, that may be true of this individual but to impose that on the rest of us as bad as the general assumptions made about prostitution.

I suppose reading through this whole debate I conclude it is nearly impossible to answer this question without taking into account all exploitation of all people and not confine it to prostitution.
It is too much of a simplistic question to ask as there are perhaps to many variables to consider, not alone the question of if it were to be made illegal what happens to those people who lose their income?
Would they applaud and say 'thank you for saving me, I'm really enjoying my life on the social'?
At the moment the reality is even having a degree does not preclude anyone from low paid work or unemployment, I'm not sure why anyone would want to see more women pushed into poverty because then you also take away their choice too.

grimbletart

"I also asked what he would be comfortable with doing if he were a prostitute because if he would not be comfortable being a prostitute I struggle to see how he could be comfortable using one."

But that's down to out individual tastes and how we think and there are probably things others would do and we wouldn't.

I personally wouldn't clean toilets, but I would employ a housekeeper. I certainly wouldn't feel any superior to said housekeeper just cos I was paying her to do something I wouldn't do.

the op mentioned help for women to leave prostitution, if this help is a job that pays the same wage as sex work and the same hours then i'm sure that women in sex work would consider switching jobs but if the help is merely help in claiming benefits then its a waste of time as women choose sex work to escape benefits and poverty, perhaps the help is cleaning the toilets of rich people for minimum wage? i suppose that sort of work is considered acceptable to the moral supremacist groups
its all very well preaching morality but morality does'nt pay the bills

I don't think asking people personal questions about what they want their children to do helps the debate. I would not want my child to be a housewife or be in a career where she/he will earn under 60k a year or be in work they hate or all kinds of things.

High price escorts in the UK charge the weekly minimum wage per each hour.
Eliot Spitzer US lawyer I think was paying that kind of rate in the US. Of course most prostitutes don't charge the same but I don't see why it should not continue to be a free market if they choose. No different from being kept by a man whilst you give him sex and do his cleaning at home. In fact some men prefer it because they pay not for the girl to be there but because she goes away. Thsi was the case I was remembering
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Spitzer_prostitution_scandal

"Governor Spitzer, referred to as "Client?9" in an affidavit filed in US Federal Court,[2] arranged to meet at the Mayflower Hotel in Washington on February 13, 2008 with a prostitute named "Kristen" ? an "American, petite, very pretty brunette, 5 feet 5 inches and 105 pounds" (165 cm, 47 kg). "Kristen" was later identified as the 22-year-old Ashley Dupré.[3][4] She intended to travel from New York City for the planned tryst and Spitzer agreed in advance that he "would be paying for everything ? train tickets, cab fare from the hotel and back, mini-bar or room service, travel time and hotel".[5] After the assignation on February 13, 2008, Spitzer paid her $4,300 in cash.[6] The payment included $1,100 as a deposit with the agency toward future services.[7]
The Mayflower Hotel in Washington.

Room 871 at the Mayflower Hotel was booked under the name George Fox, a pseudonym that was allegedly the name of his close friend, a hedge fund investor.[8][9] Reportedly, some of this information came to light from a federal wiretap.[10][11][12]

Spitzer reportedly had at least seven liaisons with prostitutes from the agency over six months, and paid more than $15,000 for their services. Federal agents had him under surveillance twice in 2008.[13][14][15] According to published reports, investigators believe Spitzer paid up to $80,000 for prostitutes over a period of several years ? first while he was attorney general, and later as governor.[16][17][18]"