Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

how would it be policed? would the police put a suspected womans home under surveillance to see if she has many male visitors, then her bedroom would have audio recording probes placed to listen into conversations, finally at some point the police invade the privacy of her bedroom to catch a client
this is like something from nazi germany, perhaps the morality police will be wearing swastika armbands and jackboots?

If a sex worker has a tragic story to tell about how awful the sex industry is and how she wants out then feminists will love it and be all ears. They crave to hear stuff like that.

And likewise, the punters and their supporters ignore the voices of prostitutes and ex-prostitutes that feel abused, denigrated and hate their jobs and despise the slimy punters - the girls/boys that started aged 15 after years of abuse and know nothing else. (look at the reviews of prostitutes on punternet - it's like a black hole of humanity)

I'm against making it illegal, btw, because ultimately it's a moral issue. I personally find using another human being as a wank puppet horrific - but those are my morals and not everyone shares them. And on the otherside if an adult choses to sell their body, it's none of my business.

Howerver, this idea that it's black and white - i.e all rape (those pesky feminists) or all harmless fun (seedy punters) is surely beneath most intelligent people. And yet we get the same argument repeated again and again.

Punterpride have you not heard of Godwin's law?

sabrina, godwins law was a godsend to neo-nazis, perhaps i should have said: this proposed law is like something from a totalitarian regime and dictatorship, as the far left are just as bad as the far right.

triffiddealer, the same argument will forever be repeated until women are given decent jobs with decent pay and decent conditions so they don't need to work in the sex industry, that day is a long way off as there are too many crap jobs about with low pay,poor conditions and sweat shop labour, raising the minimum wage to £50 hour would be a good start though

Twice in as many posts!

punterpride how would it be policed?

Prostitution is very very difficult to police and enforce. The law in Sweden (whom some claim to be the "perfect solution") has been in force for over 10 years and only 2 so far have been convicted in court! This doesn't necessarily mean prostitution has came to an end in Sweden btw the article claims it has simply moved underground and gone off the streets and indoors and onto the internet.

The Swedish law also criminalized advertising of sex services. I can see that law was a great success (not). All it takes is a quick Google search and one can find plenty contact details for escorts in Stockholm.

Basically Sweden's prostitution law claims "all workers are victims end of story" yet when it comes to the courtroom the workers are claiming they are no victims. IMO it sounds like the Swedish government is speaking on behalf of a lot of sex workers without asking them.

"Sweden?s Alliance of Counties says that resources for social work are scarce, as the money has been siphoned to
policing. In spite of over 2,000 arrests, only 59 clients have been reported suspected of buying occasional sex. Only two
have been convicted, after pleading guilty. No one has been jailed, and only low ? nes have been imposed, as per the
law. Evidence to prove a crime is nearly unattainable. Workers do not consider themselves to be victims and are almost
always unwilling to testify against their clients."

Source p38 of
www.hivlawcommission.org/resources/report/FinalReport-Risks,Rights&Health-EN.pdf

In stark contrast to dana's claims:

The Swedish gov's own enquiry into the sex laws in 2011.

Street prostitution reduced by half. This reduction may be considered to be a direct result of the criminalisation of sex purchases. In a comparison, we have noted that the prevalence of street prostitution was about the same in the three capital cities of Norway, Denmark and Sweden before the ban on the purchase of sexual services was introduced here, but the number of people In street prostitution in both Norway and Denmark subsequently increased dramatically. In 2008, the number of people in street prostitution in both Norway and Denmark was estimated to be three times higher than in Sweden.^

Furthermore, there is no evidence that prostitution has been pushed underground:

there is nothing to indicate that Internet-based prostitution has increased more in Sweden than in these comparable countries (Denmark & Norway). This contradicts the idea that street prostitution has simply changed arenas to the Internet. With this in mind it seems reasonable to conclude that the 50% decrease in street prostitution that has occurred is a real reduction of prostitution in Sweden, and that this reduction is probably primarily an effect of the criminalisation of sex purchases.

I would also take issue with dana's claim that only 2 people have been prosecuted.

eight out of ten cases in which buyers of sexual services are prosecuted involve situations in which the buyer has admitted to the offense. When suspects admit to an offense the prosecutor does not generally bring legal proceedings; instead a summary fine is imposed. The majority of offenses that have been prosecuted were committed in the three metropolitan areas. All of those prosecuted between 1999 and 2008 were men, with a median age of 43.

Source

Have YOU watched the video Sabrina?

I've read through the link provided - it predominantly comprises political weasel speak, eg....."It is clear, and seems logical, that those who have extricated themselves from prostitution take a positive view of criminalization, while those who are still exploited in prostitution are critical of the ban. This pattern is reflected in many different reports and is also confirmed by the contacts that the inquiry had with women with experience of prostitution."
The phrase 'exploited in prostitution' makes no allowance whatsoever for those who do NOT see themselves as exploited - just maybe we're exploiting the men for the contents of their wallet!
If you were to watch the video link you would see how the Swedish government gives more credence to the voice of children than to the opinion of adult women. Yes, children should have a voice, but to imply that we have less of one is insulting to say the least.
To Triffiddealer - we DON't ignore the voices of those who are truly exploited, but YOU ignore us!

Yes, I have watched the YouTube video. Pye jacobsson is a sex activist who is very vocal on this topic, I've read many of her opinions in the past. I think you have to be very careful when considering arguments by individuals with a vested financial interest innthe sex industry.

I feel that the paper I linked to gives a fuller picture of the effects of legalising prostitution since it looks at research from a variety of sources.

It also gives interesting insight into the state of prostitution in the Netherlands ( where prostitution is legalised/ regulated).

'According to the evaluation carried out in 2007, it is impossible to say whether the situation for prostitutes has improved since the regulation was put in place, in spite of the authorities efforts to protect them and improve their situation and legal status...the evaluation also reported on a survey that used a number of criteria to compare the sex sellers' emotional wellbeing in 2001 and 2006. The results indicated that their wellbeing had deteriorated in all respects. These findings correspond to other results which show that persons in prositution experience growing anxiety and that their use of tranquilisers has increased. Apparently the prostitutes were also less satisfied with their incomes in 2006 compared with 2001'

So hardly a glowing recommendation for legalisation/regulation.

Well I have a vested interest in the sex industry, does that therefore negate everything I say? I could just as easily say the Swedish government has a vested interest in how its policies are viewed. Your argument is spurious

Not really- the Swedish enquiry was non-biased investigation into the effectiveness of the law - using various sources and research - Pye jacobssen's video mainly consisted of a rant against radical feminism. Not the same at all.

I'd hardly call it a rant dearie...more a concise appraisal of the true effect of the law. What proof do you have that the investigation was non-biased?; or are you saying you that you believe everything any government tells you?

It's not the government 'telling' me though- it's a gov sponsored enquiry into the efficacy of the law. As opposed to one sex activist' (definitely biased) opinion. And it was a bit ranty.

I'd like you to justify in what way the video was a rant against radical feminism; whilst I viewed a sex worker telling it how it is. Why do you choose to denigrate a sex worker 'telling it how it is'?

Because she's not just a sex worker telling it like it is- she self identifies as a 'sex activist' which is very different. It is someone who actively promotes the sex industry. That's bias.

The Swedish gov told us all how it regards prostitution when it passed the sex laws. The paper I linked to earlier is not just the gov's opinion on the sex industry, it's an enquiry into it's effect - in comparison with other Scandinavian countries who have not passed these laws, and particularly the Netherlands which has legalised and regulated prostitution.

Would you argue for legalisation? My earlier post quoted from that study which showed prostitutes wellbeing has deteriorated since legalisation. No evidence for working conditions being improved either. So I wonder what your solution would be.

"It's not the government 'telling' me though - it's a gov sponsored enquiry into the efficacy of the law. As opposed to one sex activist' (definitely biased) opinion. And it was a bit ranty."

You're picking hairs now; you're choosing to believe the 'gov sponsered enquiry'. The video was only 'ranty' if you chose to view it that way. Perhaps it would be better if we just didn't exist?

Its hardly picking hairs to give credence to a gov enquiry which draws on a number of difference sources and various research projects to draw it's conclusions over one persons opinion.

FFS Sabrina - if you'd been a miner, you'd be arguing for the retention of your industry,however horrible it was underground...

Minne, that's a ludicrous argument. Isn't that more what your arguing?

*you're

I think when you resort to such ridiculous accusations you've lost the argument.

Loving your work on this thread Sabrina

I notice minnehaha didn't come back with what her solution would be - as the report doesn't say regulation improved the lives of prostitutes...