Dear rape apologists and whiners: I've done all the Bad Things. Repeatedly. It's never thevictim's fault.

[solidgoldbrass]

I haven't been raped.This is because lots of men are not rapists, and don't immediately rape women who are drunk, wearing short skirts or out after dark without an owner. If you think that any of the above things, or being asleep in a bed near a man, or even having some willing sexual activity with a man and then saying actually no, stop, means it's OK for the man to just go ahead and fuck till he spunks...Would your son do that? Your husband, your best mate, your brother? Do you really think that all the men you know are potential rapists?

We'll have to agree to disagree...

I have three choices:

1. Never say anything and leave her to be buffeted by life's vicissitudes

1. Tell her it doesn't matter what she does, rapists rape, she might as well leave her dirnk unattended/get really pissed and naked etc, which I think would make her feel very insecure and unsafe and that danger lurked round every corner.

1. Tell her to take every sensible precaution but there is always the unlikely but possible unexpected.

I'm going with 3.

I agree Merci better education.

I have been 9, in my house.
I have been 18, in my room with a boy I thought I really liked.
I have been 19, standing outside my flat.

I have been abused, I have been raped, I have been assaulted.

I'm with hully - as I said I teach them both the same.

I don't want anything bad to happen to either Of them and alcohol figures highly in all sorts of stats - accidents, assaults, muggings,

Very surprising and a little disturbing tbh (the soldier gettingo off)

Bollocks. That was going to be both profound and interesting (honest :)) but is was cut short by screaming ds2

Please.

There are more choices than that.

There is the choice of teaching her the reality.

My mum taught me that walking home wasn't unsafe.

My mum taught me that I could wear what I liked (she always had an opinion)

My mum taught me that what is said was important and to say NO if I needed to.

My mum taught me not to leave my drink unattended. I always did.

We are at an impasse. You talk of risk, I refuse to bow to it.

Ah. We're still pals though but we will never agree.

Sighing, If they are both too drunk to consent then it wouldn't happen. If it does happen then it's harder to explain how he could have been unwilling, or too drunk. The question then is, was she willing. Of course each case Is different. If they're both very drunk and equally consenting then of course there's no victim & no issue.

DD goes out and gets pissed,she flat shares with a friend so not at home now..

I have always told her of the dangers of spiked drinks and walking home alone etc.

Why would i not tell her?

It does happen.

I did the same at her age and was fortunate enough never to meet a rapist.

Btw I would always teach my kids to 'stay safe' too.

What I got from the OP was simply that, if you were ever actually raped, it was not because you did something wrong. I think the idea that rape can be avoided does place a huge stress on those that didn't.

The chance of it happening is TINY.

Have you talked to her about getting raped by a friend or a boyfriend or someone else she knows?

My mum didn't teach me anything...

I teach both my dc all the above (apart from walking home because for me that was unsafe and once bitten etc)

I tell them to assess risks, weigh them up and act upon them sensibly.

Their lives are in no ways circumscribed by fear, in fact the opposite, they are all the broader for clear-eyed risk appraisal.

I'm not sure we are that far apart...

My Mum told me not to hitch hike but i did.

On my own and with a friend.

We had some lovely/funny lifts with people (men!) taking us out of their way so we got home safely.

Oh no Shirl, I never thought of that...

Soz, but DUHHHHHHHH

My entire point is talking about reality, and that reality includes taking the weeny steps to protect yourself you can (eg unattended drinks)

The tiny bits eg the sodding unattended drinks and pissed-up ness I have been talking about arose from eclectic's point about their being SOME sensible things one can do.

Well I do these things also, I walk to the shops at 10/11pm regularly, sometimes I even go to the garage at 12/1am. I haven't been raped in those circumstances, but once when pissed walking home (when I was much younger) I did meet a bloke and decide to shag him.

I have no idea what the hell I was doing, I don't mean that I was insensible with drink, just no idea why the hell I thought it a good idea at the time, that's booze for you. I think I was very needy and a great deal fucked up.

That is why I would encourage my children not to get very drunk, not that they will be raped, but they will actually choose to shag randoms, and other bad bad decisions.

If they are both too drunk to consent it wouldn't happen - sorry that's rubbish - it can and does happen between 2 bollixed people all the time.

How can 2 people who don't consent have sex exactly?

Because neither would have the capacity to consent, being too drunk too.

so they wouldnt be "able" to consent.

A drunken shag is not rape

And here's the thing, everyone knows that

No I dont think everyone knows that at all.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your scenario. 2 people, both too drunk to consent to sex, somehow have sex nonetheless. Is it an accident? If they had sex, it has to be assumed that at least one of them was consenting.

I think when you get into the territory of both of you being horribly pissed, it gets a bit shaky.

There's been times I've done the need but definitely not remembered the next day.

Everyone knows a drunken shag isn't rape.

Not everyone agrees on what is and isn't a drunken shag. That's the nub.

Don't get drunk (males and females) and no room for confusion.