Dear rape apologists and whiners: I've done all the Bad Things. Repeatedly. It's never thevictim's fault.

[solidgoldbrass]

I haven't been raped.This is because lots of men are not rapists, and don't immediately rape women who are drunk, wearing short skirts or out after dark without an owner. If you think that any of the above things, or being asleep in a bed near a man, or even having some willing sexual activity with a man and then saying actually no, stop, means it's OK for the man to just go ahead and fuck till he spunks...Would your son do that? Your husband, your best mate, your brother? Do you really think that all the men you know are potential rapists?

Fastidia - becasue that was where it started.

I fail to see how my angle isn't femininst:

Rapists rape.

Educate and fight to change

Meanwhile, keep as safe as you can, guys and gels , because to do anything else really is a bit stupid. So don't leave your drink unattended, don't walk through an area known for gang rape at three in the morning (and the world is a little bigger than the UK), look both ways before crossing the road.

None of that ^^ places any blame on the woman or puts the responsibility on her. Sensible basic rules for both sexes.

And avoid all men

That's the safest

Fair enough if it's for both sexes

It never is though, is it?

There is that.

But the Real World makes that difficult.

Perhaps it is time for a revival of the convent? But in a secular fashion?

It is for me Fastidia. I have two teenagers, boy and girl, they get the same talk, so do their frineds when I can force them to listen

Hully is bang on the money here.

It's insanity not to teach kids street smarts, on the grounds of it being 'rape apology'.

No it isn't the same, because the world that operates on civilised modern discourse is tiny weeny. The vasty world is nasty brutish and basic still.

One fights on.

I think it's all got mixed up.

No one disagrees about street smarts.

No one disagrees rapists rape.

The concern is to change the idea that any woman contributes in any way at any time ever ever to her own rape. But in discussing that the other stuff comes up:

Is prevention possible? No, not in the sense that it is ever the woman's fault.

Are precaustions of basic safety/street smarts desirable? Yes, because it's all we have and it's sensible.

I think it depends where you live. If you're in a city, you definitely need street smarts, male or female, and I think most people get that.

I've never lived in the suburbs or safe areas, do people really just tell their daughters to be careful? Do men not take any precautions at all?

I really think there's a geographical divide in these debates.

The "only" variable in being raped is not meeting a rapist. It is meeting a rapist and being in a position where you can get raped (i.e alone with him, generally).

This thread reminds me of people who say "my cousin X suffered a heart attack at 53 and he went to the gym every day" so exercise is pointless. Of course you cannot prevent all rapes by being sensible, but you can prevent some.

People don't have a moral right to drink themselves senseless. They are much more likely to end up in hospital than raped and end up placing an unnecessary burden on the people on their loved ones. One should have some respect for one's own body, regardless of the reason.

The idea that different lifestyles or precautions make zero difference in the statistical likelihood of being raped is both wrong and dangerous. You will only ever get raped if you meet a rapist but your chances of meeting a rapist will be higher if you end up alone with a stranger every night.

Are all of you with daughters going to teach them not to take any precautions at all and encourage them to drink themselves into a stupor? Will you pay for them to get a taxi home late at night? I will teach my sons to avoid certain areas, certain types of people and to treat their bodies and partners with respect and avoid being overly promiscuous as that is disrespectful to themselves and their partners (aside from risking STIs). And were I ever to have a daughter, it would be exactly the same message.

Do you teach your teenage sons safety, though? Do you advise them to be careful how much they drink, and to watch themselves walking home alone at night? Actually, if you don't, you should because young men are the group at the highest risk of being attacked by strangers - strangers who want to steal their belongings, strangers who object to the fact that a young man is wearing the wrong colour shirt (even inadvertently) or is in 'their' territory.

Oh, and promiscuity isn't 'disrespectful'. It's fun, if you enjoy having sex with lots of different people - and how much sex a person chooses to have with however many consenting partners is that person's business not anyone else's.

Common sense is what is needed. Don't walk down dark streets alone for example - but that isn't just because of the fear of rape, muggings or knife attacks happen too. Don't drink yourself stupid because it's a disgusting thing to do to your body and you risk getting robbed or even knocked down by a car. Those things apply to everyone, of any age or sex. I think it's a shame to emphasise to girls how uniquely vulnerable they are

I agree that getting horribly drunk is a bad idea for anyone - there are all sorts of potential dangers.

But, walking down dark streets alone? How on earth is it possible to avoid this? I live in London and if I never walked down a dark street alone I wouldn't be able to go out in the evening at all! In winter months I would have to leave work at 3.

Do you have lots of unlit streets? I must admit there aren't many round here - and in the winter I avoid running along the canal path because it isn't lit.

Well, they're not totally unlit, but they are quite dark. However, I'm not sure how much difference it makes - your average rapist/mugger would find a pitch-dark street very offputting, because they need some light to see who is coming and do their nasty deeds.

I wouldn't like to be on a deserted canal path at night alone either, partly because there are usually very few exits. But I'm just not sure how much of this is our inbuilt fear of dark and solitude (because they make us easy prey for carnivorous animals who might be prowling around) and how much is based on actual 21st-century facts. It would be interesting to see some statistics on when and how people are attacked.

"But I'm just not sure how much of this is our inbuilt fear of dark and solitude"

Agreed. It just feel risky regardless of stats.

Yeah, don't forget to watch out for Vashta Nerada, as well!

Just looked this up:

'The Vashta Nerada were microscopic beings which lived in swarms, thousands strong. Individually, Vashta Nerada were not a threat, but in large numbers, they could strip a creature to its bare bones in milliseconds. The Vashta Nerada lived in the darkness. They mimicked the shadows of their prey to get close, which meant staying in the light was the only way to escape.'

Terrifying, SGB. If you find my skeletal remains on a side-street in East London you'll know what happened.

Got any evidence for the assertion that lifestyle makes a difference as to whether you'll be raped larry?

A few years ago I was walking from the train station to my parents house late at night down a small country road. It was almost pitch black and I had no torch.

I'd walked the road many times so was striding ahead when suddenly I realized there was someone else walking slowly on the road and I'd pretty much caught up with them. I could tell it was a woman from her perfume and the sound of her stride.

Other than the two of us there wasn't a soul around, it was very dark, I knew the area like the back of my hand, I'm 6'3" and fairly strong.

I didn't rape the woman because I'm not a rapist.

I had to say something as I guessed she'd be quite freaked, so as I'd caught up with her by that point I said a cheery 'oh hello, sorry didn't mean to scare you, my name's X I'm just walking to my parents house in X village, I'll walk on ahead.'

I ended up walking her to her destination before walking onto my parents.

I have been raped.
I was out with my friends and lost them in a club. I didn't want to wander around the massive club looking for them so I thought it was safest to ask a bouncer for help.
The bouncer told me he'd seen them and he take me to them. He was the person that led me into a room, locked the door and raped me.

I thought I was being sensible in asking the bouncer for help. I was not being "irresponsible". It was not my fault.

So to those that said earlier in the thread that "common sense" prevents rape... may I politely say to you to educate yourselves please.

Precisely MrGin.

You didn't rape the woman, because you're not a rapist.

If you had raped her, it wouldn't have been because she was there on the lonely road, it would have been because you would be a rapist. Seeing a woman alone on a lonely dark road, didn't turn you into a rapist.

I just don't think we can stress that enough really because a lot of women (and men) seem to believe that if women do anything risky, it will turn otherwise normal men into rapists. When in fact, those men were rapists in the first place, they just hadn't had the opportunity to rape that particular woman up to that point.

The other thing of course, is that raping a woman on a dark road, is not an efficient modus operandi for a rapist. They nearly always ensure that they rape women in grey areas - at her home after she's invited them in, at a friend's, at a party - anywhere where there is the slightest chance of him being able to argue that it is a case of "he said she said" and have some credibility. It is harder to successfully argue, that a woman you have never met before, consented to have sex with you on a dark lonely road, although of course many rapists do argue this and are believed by juries steeped in rape-myths.

I've done all those things too. I've been raped though. Not my fault.

Yes, I will teach my son to watch himself when walking home alone.

I advise my teenage sons not to walk home alone and not to be out late walking the streets drunk - they're too soft a target. It's a fact that teenage boys are far more likely to be a victim of violence than girls. Not rape but assault., I know several teenagers who have been beatenb up after taking shortcuts through back gates of a local venue or down an unlit path.

They weren't at fault but they would've been well advised to have been more careful so that they weren't a target for the little shits that set upon them.

Same for girls walking the streets drunk and with short skirts etc. Of course it's wrong to rape - there's no excuse. But there's a tiny minority of men who will do it so why make yourself a target?

If you don't agree then just leave your handbag on the seat of your car every night for a week and see what happens. No one should smash your window and if they do you're not to blame, but it would've been easy to avoid the unpleasantness by taking sensible precautions.