Is feminism all about man hating?

[PedanticPanda]

When feminism is brought up around my DP and my other friends they all say the same thing,

I agree with feminists who want equal rights for men and women, but not feminists who hate men and want women to be treated better than men.

Do these feminists actually exist? I assumed that feminism was all about equal rights etc, I thought all the man hating was a stereotype but wasn't actually true, but, most people I know seem to think this is the idea of the majority and it's the minority of feminists who want equal rights.

Um, no.

That isn't a political parallel.

The privileged oppressing class excluding the non privileged oppressed class, is entirely different to the non privileged oppressed class excluding the privileged oppressing class from a space in which they wish to discuss their oppression.

This is basic basic politics.

Well, I am familiar with this concept of of the slaves barring the masters from their hut, as was expressed on here earlier. I can see a fundamental difference, but I can also see a parallel. The fact that Augusta until recently had a ban on non-whites too doesn't add any weight to their case. I just was curious to see if there were any differing views.

I don't know of any equivalent men only spaces.

I don't know of any spaces in which men get together in order to discuss how they are institutionaly oppressed by women or to discuss global female violence against men, or to discuss their lower status due to their biological sex. Or to discuss matriarchal society and how it harms and disadvantages men. Or to discuss how men are disproportionately affected by prostitution and sexualised violence.

I wonder why that might be?

Whatmeworry's post of Wed 11-Jul-12 13:28:37 suggested that it was relevant to the notion that feminists hate men. That the idea of women only spaces is extreme and makes feminism a laughing stock. It seemed to be a follow on from the argument that some feminist hate men

Here we are on a thread about "Is feminism all about man hating?". Most of the reasonable people on thread say no, its not all about hating men, but there are some Feminists who probably do hate men, stands to reason.

Oh no, say the MN Radfems piously - we have never met anyone who ever hated a man, no neverevereverever.

And yet these are the selfsame people who won't let anyone with a willy come near their conference - even if these people are in the process of becoming women (they are not there to disrupt, but to join). No, rather ban them and go through astounding mental gymnastics (see some of the above posts) to justify why this isn't blatant discrimination and hypocrisy. Because an (internal) Radical Feminist analysis says We Are Right.

And if you don't support this you are Not A Proper Feminist, it seems.

Can't you see how unhelpful it all is? All it does is create a (totally unnecessary) rod with which opponents can beat Feminism overall with, and neutrals just walk away shaking their heads - they don't discriminate.

Beach, I could be childish and ask you to ignore my question and return to kicking out at trans people instead. I see an oppressed community within their ranks, but you have issues with them. I don't want to go down that road because I have no idea how they as a community feel or what issues they face.

All I would ask is that you accept that I posed a question in all sincerity because I thought it relevant to the discussion. If you don't, fine. I know from past encounters that you have an issue with me, so I suggest we drop this.

I'm with you on the basic premiss, Beachcomber, but I quailed at the thought of going through it all over again. And the people who never post here unless there's a bust-up in the offing piling in.

No response to MNHQ on why the posts were deleted. I will chase that up.

Doh! No reponse from MNHQ, sorry.

'I don't know of any spaces in which men get together in order to discuss how they are institutionaly oppressed by women or to discuss global female violence against men, or to discuss their lower status due to their biological sex. Or to discuss matriarchal society and how it harms and disadvantages men. Or to discuss how men are disproportionately affected by prostitution and sexualised violence.

I wonder why that might be?'

There are plenty of spaces exactly as you have described here, plenty.

Agree.
There are plenty of places where men only meet up and talk about how awful it is that X woman is now 'allowed' to have such and such a job.
Or where women are actually kicked out (using brutal force) because there shouldn't be there.

I am wondering why some women are trying to reproduce the very same things that men have done in the past and that we have (and are still) fighting against.
Why doing something that we know isn't working?

Unless of course, you have actually bought into the very male way of looking at things 'If I ain't at the top, I am at the bottom and I don't like it'

Whatme I have no idea who you're referring to with the "MNRadFems" - I'm not a radical feminist but I see the benefit of women-only spaces when women want to talk about surviving sexual abuse.

"And yet these are the selfsame people who won't let anyone with a willy come near their conference " ... if you're referring to Conway, I believe that they did in fact let people with penises come to their conferences, but they proposed a workshop for women surviving sexual abuse that would have no penises there at all.

Since these women had been attacked with penises, it doesn't seem outlandish to me to offer them a penis-free zone in which they could talk about the abuse.

Is saying "I am not comfortable with you here, and I would like to perserve this little space as a space without you in it." - to the person possessing a penis like the one that raped you - is that really radical and extreme and anti-men

Good God! Next thing you'll be saying that having female toilets is anti-men. Or female changing rooms at swimming pools. Must all spaces that women use be open to men at ALL TIMES, lest the poor men's feelings get all butthurt? What about the women's feelings?

Shitting crikey!

Is this debate really happening AGAIN? Can't we just say "no thanks" to having it?

Sigh.

I have a right to spaces that discuss my own issues as a born female.

MtF have the right to discuss their discrimination.

Why must the two overlap every single time?

And thanks to Kim, I've come to the conclusion I have no issue with trans. I still believe this though. Different issues, different discrimination.

So tired of this argument. Throwing trans into this particular topic seems like a way to make feminists look hateful.

I tried sooo hard not to engage. . . . I fell victim to the stirring.

I won't again!

Neither Blackcurrants

Good. It was this endless dwelling on one subject that drove me off this board for ages. I don't think anyone has got anything to gain by trying to persuade WhatMe, You might as well get on a conveyor belt and go for a run, tire yourself out another way.

Sorry if I sound narky, I'm not really, just tired of our feminist spaces being brought back to a single issue (coincidentally one that is about how bad and naughty feminists are, rather than anythingwe've achieved or want to achieve) over and over again.

Yeah, I think you're right, Elephants. I never engaged on the trans issue before, and I'm not planning on it now. But the idea that women-only spaces are anti-men just makes me guffaw. I must run into the bra fitting part of Bravissimo next time I'm in there and yell "WHY DO YOU GIVE FEMINISM SUCH A BAD NAME?"

Anyway, I think we've got pretty far answering the OP and I hope it helps her. And I've enjoyed our discussion. And now I'm going to apply for a bunch of jobs and continue giving feminism a bad name. Possibly I'll make cookies! Evil feminist cookies! for my husband and son, whom I am of course anti.

Just hopping over from the AIBU thread to see where I stand on the trans issue

I made buns the other day put razors in them and handed them out to men, I did Blackcurrants. Bad, feminist buns they were. With vanilla butter icing.

oooh they sound amazing. It's 10am and I could really do with an evil feminist sticky bun.

If I lived near a Greggs I'd totally be heading there right now, for a sticky bun. Happily for everyone, there are none in the continental US. So we're all saved!

Ooh, could I have recipes for evil feminist cookies and bad feminist buns please?

OK I know where I am now. I'm a lot more radical than I thought I was

Are you sure you didn't give them to my nan Elephants? I swear she makes rock buns with actual rocks in them sometimes. Maybe she's more feminist than I thought.

stop it, i'm hungry!

wheezo, the conversation has moved on since you posted this so if you dont mind me dragging it back a page or two, you said:-

"I always remember walking home late (probably not that late but at 9/10 years old it was dark so felt late) with my dad and he did this bizarre thing where as we approached a lone woman walking on the same street he immediately crossed over and speeded up - and being confused as to why we were doing this on a pretty much deserted street I asked him why and he explained that it was force of habit - if he ever found himself alone on a street at night with a woman in front of him that is what he did - because he didn't want the woman to be concerned a man was following her and crossing over put distance between them and speeding up put him in front of her within her line of vision so it was the best way (he thought) to remove that fear. At the time I didn't really understand but now I think how awesome of my dad to understand that to any woman he is Schroedinger's rapist and instead of getting all sulky over it he tried to adjust his behaviour practically to ensure he reduced anxiety of women who didn't know him"

i have allways done this ( no i'm not looking for a blue peter badge) , especialy when i'm with a few guys i will try to usher them accross the street, once in a car full of guys the woman infront might have thought we were following her so i took a different route.

but actually i have never seen any of these little acts as being feminist, women are, frightend of men, men they dont know anyway, i would like a world where women can walk the streets without a fear of all men just because they are strangers.

women look away when you meet their gaze in a way that other men dont. i find it terribly sad that one sex's default position is fear of the other sex, it just seems crazy to me.

once, late at night and in a new town a bit pissed and looking for a party i had been invited to asked a woman if she knew where a certain street was, before i had utterd two words she was shreiking and waving her arms about, i stepped back confused and shocked at this reaction, she hurried off allmost in tears leaving me wondering what the hell had just happend.
i felt bad then for the rest of the night.

namechangeguy, sorry but I don't really understand your post.

I don't have an issue with you - perhaps we have had a run in on MN and you think I'm carrying it onto this thread? I honestly don't remember if we have and I'm replying to you here on the basis of this thread alone.

@EldritchCleavage

I'm with you on the basic premiss, Beachcomber, but I quailed at the thought of going through it all over again. And the people who never post here unless there's a bust-up in the offing piling in.

No response to MNHQ on why the posts were deleted. I will chase that up.

Hi there,

Happy to answer specific requests, if a post of yours was removed then click report and ask why and we will let you know.

There have been a fair few deletions on this thread and as earlier stated, most were for personal attacks.