Is feminism all about man hating?

[PedanticPanda]

When feminism is brought up around my DP and my other friends they all say the same thing,

I agree with feminists who want equal rights for men and women, but not feminists who hate men and want women to be treated better than men.

Do these feminists actually exist? I assumed that feminism was all about equal rights etc, I thought all the man hating was a stereotype but wasn't actually true, but, most people I know seem to think this is the idea of the majority and it's the minority of feminists who want equal rights.

Interesting. Whatme, earlier I did do that. I agreed that there were bound to be people at the extreme end of feminism who hated men, and I asked what would happen because I had said that. You then said that I hadn't said it properly, and completely ignored the fact that I had said it at all!

Whatme, I think dismissing someone's argument because of the tone of their voice is really a poor cover for dismissing their the actual content of their argument. If we believe in what we believe in and the subject comes up, then why do we have to be all happy and smiley about something that is a serious subject?

The truth is, you could say that you're a feminist with a beatific smile on your face and still get the same negative response.

And like Seeker said plenty of posters have said that yes, they do exist. But to be greeted with the statement in the OP shows that the speaker is focussing on the negative aspect as the majority.

Upon discovering that someone is a Muslim would a sane person say "Well, I don't mind Muslims practising their religion but I don't like the ones that blow up buildings."? Of course they wouldn't because apart from being ridiculously inaccurate, it's also very rude..

Whatme, I think dismissing someone's argument because of the tone of their voice is really a poor cover for dismissing their the actual content of their argument. If we believe in what we believe in and the subject comes up, then why do we have to be all happy and smiley about something that is a serious subject?

It isn't only tone, though I do think that is part of it - its also the undefendable policies and beliefs that cause the huge difficulties.

Look at the recent Conway Hall brouhaha, in 2012 to have that sort of stuff going on is..... unhelpful. I have no wish at all to defend transphobia, and no intention of doing so - and it pees me off when people now keep on shoving it in my face as an exmple of how daft Feminists are. IMO that made the Feminist movement as a whole a laughing stock.

As to tone, I'm very aware that there is no pleasing some people, but those are probably the ones you will never persuade. But tone can easily put up the backs of neutrals or even those well disposed to you, so IMO its better to always use a reasonable tone.

Sorry to butt in so far into a thread, but Shakesville's part of Fem101 entitled How are we supposed to take female bloggers seriously if they post about shoes? is worth a read.

Interesting thread.

And in answer to the OP (though I think you've been told enough times by now!) no, it isn't. When I get that kind of thing I usually say something like Blackcurrants does. "Hmm, indeed. Interestingly although I hang out in feminist websites and forums and go to conference and even have my own feminist group, I've never met anyone who's campaigning for female dominance over men - who are you thinking of?" Because even if some women, somewhere, hate men (and as an earlier poster said - there's someone out there who hates deckchairs, or mountains, or people called Sean), it's totally irrelevant to what feminism is or what it is trying to achieve :)

I agree that there are probably people at the extreme end of feminism who hate men, although I have never met any.

What now?

Just scrolled back on this thread to remind myself where we started to find it has been eviscerated with umpteen deletions, including one of mine (first ever). What on earth? Why? At whose behest? I don't think there was anything on here that merited deletion. Is this how we roll in FWR these days? Anything but the most anodyne goes ping?

I can't remember anything even remotely deletable. The Thought Police are among us again.

It really is bloody stupid. I thought this was supposed to be a grown up forum for grown ups.

I agree that there are probably people at the extreme end of feminism who hate men, although I have never met any. What now

IMO that is a much better approach - better tone, if you like - than your original, which was:

Well, yes there may well be feminists who hate men. I've never met one, but I suppose there must be a couple somewhere

Thank you for the "notes" i will bear them in mind.

As I said, now what?

Whatmeworry are you saying that you think women organising feminist meetings that are open to biological women only, is extreme?

If there are people who laugh at the idea that biological women and MTF transpeople have different biology, political identities and concerns, I suggest you ignore them.

There is little point in defending feminism to people who do not think that biological women exist as a distinct group. I suspect it may be a waste of time.

Funnily enough I discussed that whole issue with people in RL, people who do not identity as feminists - they all totally got that it is ridiculous for anyone to suggest that a MTF transperson is exactly the same as a biological women. They all got that biological women have different political and health issues to MTF trans. They all got why women want, need and have the right to women only spaces.

(I got deleted too upthread - because I referenced a post that got deleted for breaking the guidelines, not because I broke them myself. Actually I wish MNHQ would differentiate between the different sorts of deletions.)

^"I agree that there are probably people at the extreme end of feminism who hate men, although I have never met any. What now

IMO that is a much better approach - better tone, if you like - than your original, which was:

Well, yes there may well be feminists who hate men. I've never met one, but I suppose there must be a couple somewhere"^

Whatme, you're kidding right? There's barely any difference between the two. You've been putting us through the wringer for a teeny tiny tweaking of language. Really... tsk tsk..

I hate this, women you must agree or admit to something about something else somewhere, especially about some wrong some woman may have done, in order for feminism to be taken seriously, it's bullshit.

And yes to this.

It is actually really offensive. Would you do it to any other marginalised group? Would you ask people of colour to admit that some of their group hate whiteys really, before you deigned to listen to them?

Would you insist that homosexuals say that some gay people hate straight people, before you would discuss gay rights with them?

Personally I don't want to discuss feminism seriously with anyone who seems to think they have the right to make me attack women before I have the right to speak and be listened to. Fuck that for a game of soldiers.

And if those people are then Put Off Feminism, might I suggest that their commitment and interest were never very genuine in the first place. (Or they were labouring under the illusion that it is possible to advance women's rights whilst never actually challenging the status quo or saying anything political)

And of course, lets remember that whilst feminists are having stupid, pointless and offensive negotiations like this, they aren't having useful feminist discussions/engaging in action.

They are in the groundhog day of defending the strawfeminist.

It seems to me that what Whatme implies is that in order to be listened to you have to reassure men that you are one of the nice ones, you are rational, and you won't bite.

This bespeaks a poor opinion of men -- can they not handle the truth?

Nah apparently you have to reassure men that there ARE nasty mean feminists out there with a rusty shears, but you are NOT one of them. Why on earth that would do the feminist cause any good at all, I have no idea. Surely people will just take away the message that yeah, feminists on the whole are evil but there are one or two who are alright and "only" want equality.

But you can stroke their furrowed brows while carefully snipping off their testicles

I don't know what's wrong with me but I have started to feel a wee bit sorry for the menz apropos the whole feminism = man hating thing. I hope it's not catching.

I was browsing through above linked blog and read this article white women's tears and I was like because it just seemed to be spewing hateful stereotypes and I didn't even recognise the stereotype as any white woman I know. And I proper hate racists and I wanted to shout "But that's not me!!!"

And then I realised that I was reacting in the same way we accuse men of reacting to feminism. So that is when the sympathy started and I'm . So AIBU to feel a teensy tiny bit sorry for men that are put on the defensive by feminism?

Not BU at all! I have reacted the same way.

It's just unreasonable when unlike you accept you have white privilege, men come here knowing they have male privilege and get defensive. What's the point? I don't go to forums for racism support to learn, and get defensive because I have white privilege.

messy - you may not personally know any white women like that but there are plenty of threads on here in which a white woman is bleating about the fact that she/her DC are not racist and it was really mean of the black person to imply that she was. And loads of posts saying 'of course you're not racist, blah blah blah'. From other white women.

If an oppressed group makes you feel uncomfortable, it's a good thing. Because it makes you think. So rather than dismissing the reaction out of hand because you're not like that, think about what it's like to be on the receiving end of it.

The world is so skewed in men's favour that they don't realise a lot it a lot of the time. And it's uncomfortable stuff.

"men come here knowing they have male privilege"

I don't think they do. Men can feel as if they are not viewed as positively as women, rational or not. It's hard to see your own privilege.

Hmm, I find that very hard to stomach Eccles because surely men know that the "women are wonderful" effect is just a thinly veiled ruse to keep women in low paying jobs or in unpaid domestic service. Nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with a patriarchal pat on the head.

It's very odd that men don't see that. It means they actually see themselves as the under privileged group whilst continuing to benefit from more privilege than not.

Whatmeworry are you saying that you think women organising feminist meetings that are open to biological women only, is extreme?

The F-word summed it up nicely:

"Excluding trans women from an event that aims to build an "anti-oppressive movement for the liberation of all women from patriarchal oppression" is bitterly ironic".

Whatever happened to sex not being the same as gender....not to mention gaily contravening every piece of UK anti discrimination legislation going.

IMO only people with a very thin grip on reality would think they could pull that off in 2012.

i have problems accepting the fact of privilege.

my own personal situation doesnt feel even slightly privileged, apart from growing up in the good end of town. both my sisters are graduates and successful. i'm deslecxic and a builder , i spend most of my working day dirty if not knee-deep in mud.

i know privilege isnt personal to me but to men as a class, but when a bunch of middle class white feminists tell me i must accept my privilege i find that hard to swallow.