Is sexual orientation a choice?

[WidowWadman]

Julie Bindel seems to think so.

Is it just me or is that actually fairly offensive?

Which exists.

I'm being a pedant now -5pts

Generally speaking you are of course correct.

So basically it's not the patriarchy we need to worry about, but advertising?

Advertising is the patriarchy's 5th column.

I think what kim is saying is that there is no single male experience.

Sorry - I really didn't mean to be flippant there (which it was).

For both men and women arguably the strongest messages they get about what it means to be a man/woman come from the media, and advertising is the purest form of this - it distils those messages into a 15 second video or a single image and doesn't really go in for subtlety.

They play heavily on gender stereotypes - and in the process shape/reinforce those messages in the brains of everyone whose exposed to them.

The arguments Eats made about female body image are clearly true - but there's a growing problem with similar issues with men. Increased body dismorphia, increased use of cosmetic surgery, associated levels of depression, self harm and suicide.

Now only three men posting on this thread and we've managed to start talking about men having shit body issues.

The patriarchy wins again.

hangs head in shame, wanders off mournfully into the sunset

I was just going to ask how many of the posters on here are men !

But do not despair Robin, you sound like a Goodfellow

Oops, sorry Kim. Jumping to conclusions. Won't make the same mistake again.

I have seen some of your stuff kim, and it is my first encounter of anybody part of the trans community. It has been a real eye-opener for me, so thank you for sharing. Your experiences are one of the reasons that I try (so far with abject failure) to ascertain what lies 'beyond the patriarchy'. My concern is that, with human beings involved, we might just replace one set of prejudices with another.

Julie Bindel will be delighted this is how this thread has ended.

I think I just heard her self-combust

I'm back. Effeminate men/boys are ridiculed because they are viewed as like women.

But to be fair Kim, you have to compare gender non conforming boys with gender non conforming girls. And then you can see gender non conforming boys still have more privilege than gender non conforming boys. Teenage girls who are "masculine" are ridiculed, threatened and attacked.

As you know Kim from thread you have been on, rape and sexual assault is a very very common experience for women. DV is also very common. Being sexually harassed on the street e.g. comments about breasts, etc is also very very common. All of these experiences reinforce the message to women that they are vulnerable. The fact that so few people speak out about it, reinforces the message that they don't really matter.

And of course men can have bad experiences/pressure, etc, but we are talking about women here. This section of the forum is a feminist one.

Are we not here to talk about society and politics from a feminist perspective? I thought that was a bit wider than just talking about women.

Of course every individuals experience is different. Perhaps would have been clearer for me to say that men have a higher status than women in a patriarchail society.

namechange - Feminism is about the liberation of women. It is about women. What do you think feminism is if you think its about more than women?

The challenging of gender expectations?

Breaking down gender expectations?

Allowing men and women to be treated equally and not to be expected to follow a gender ideal? Not saying - you're a woman so you must stay do this and who do you think you are trying to do that?

Getting rid of the notion "You're a women so society will treat you like this"
"You're a man so society willl treat you like this".

I think that's liberation of people - maybe that encompasses more than feminism?

Well, I thought it was about the betterment of society by overthrow of the patriarchy, because the patriarchy damages both men and women. So therefore it is also about improving the lot of men, in a roundabout way. Something like that.

Feminism does benefit men in some ways. But feminism is not about equality. It is about the liberation of women. The focus is very much on women.