Is sexual orientation a choice?

[WidowWadman]

Julie Bindel seems to think so.

Is it just me or is that actually fairly offensive?

it's really clear reading this that some people are trying to contribute to a discussion and bring up interesting points but then those points don't get to be discussed because someone will seize on something to try and rip the person apart rather than having a discussion. the whole 'you're a sexist' was a total detour. someone is entitled to believe that all men are sexist to one degree or another due to their conditioning and privilige - it's hardly an extreme or bizarre view on a feminism board. the tabloidesque attacks on everything anyone trying to discuss anything says is silencing and basically derailing. it's a shame we don't get to discuss anything because the 'let's shoot a feminist down' brigade want to prevent that from happening.

and yes namechangeguy - exactly - men are priviliged they have no invested interest in changing that but in preserving it. as do some women who cling to the coat tails of men's privilige and inch above some other women and mistake that for personal power or agency.

GothAnneGeddes, you made the following comment:

'When, on another thread here, I said that I found PIV enjoyable, I was told that I shouldn't find it enjoyable, because it's no different then being poked in the ear.
For me feminism is about liberation of female potential. I do not find someone being judgemental and critical of my sexual preferences in anyway liberating, it is the opposite.'

As another poster has pointed out, my actual comment that you are presumably referring to was:

'GAG, I don't really understand why orifices need to be explored. I don't explore the inside of my ear.

Is the vagina packed with nerve endings? I thought that was just the bit around the vulva, which you can stimulate without penetration anyway. I can't feel a tampon once it is in, so I'm assuming my vagina is not packed with nerve endings.

I am more concerned that a lot of people don't understand that an engorged clitoris is the same size as a penis, where it is located or how to stimulate any part of it other than the tip. The sexual element of the vagina, while having its own unique pleasures, is a secondary concern for most women when it comes to having an orgasm.

I don't think that is grudgingly admitting people enjoy PIV sex - I think it is just putting the level of sexual pleasure in some kind of context.'

This was in response to your post where you said:

'I find it odd that in a world which disrespects the female body and belittles it, so much of the PIV discusssion talks about the vagina as if it is just a corridor to the womb. How negative. I am more then a case for my womb.

The vagina is an amazing part of the human body, self lubricating, self cleaning, packed with nerve endings, but because it is an orifice, rather then a flat piece of tissue, to explore it, it needs to be penetrated (which can be done in a variety of ways, not just by a penis and yes, some lesbians do like penetration too). Much of the PIV conversation seems to grudgingly admit that some women like PIV, but will claim that most don't and I find that to be body negative and a denial of the pleasure women can experience.'

It would seem that you are mis-representing the conversation. I clearly did not say that PIV was equivalent to being poked in the ear. I was not in fact 'judgemental and critical of your sexual preferences' at all.

Could you please explain why you have mis-represented the posts.

namechange - Yes that is exactly the point. Most men don't change their attitudes or behaviour through education - they change them because women force them to. That is why educating women is the important thing to do, not men.

Then would you say that your actions to force through change are because of a selfish desire? You are a woman and you want your lot to improve. Or are they altruistic aims, i.e. because in a fair and decent society, it is the right thing to do?

It is the right thing to do. Women should have their needs met in society too. It would be selfish if I wanted women to be in a better position than men - I don't.

However, any real change in society is led by those who are most affected by the disadvantage - whether disabled people, black people, etc. It is natural for most people to prioritise areas where they personally are affected.

Do you believe that, to quote your earlier example, S Africa was forced to overthrow apartheid because of altruistic actions of Western white politicians, the majority of whom were male? (Interestingly, Mrs Thatcher was a big opponent of economic sanctions due to British business interests in SA).

Apartheid was overthrown because black people fought to overthrow it. Yes white allies supported that. But I am not going to get into a long debate about apartheid

My point wasn't really about apartheid, but about methods of the overthrow of oppressive regimes. After all, why invent the wheel? I was just interested in your perspective on it, as a situation analogous to patriarchy.

Hello eatsbrainsandleaves - I've read this thread with interest (and dismay...)

Was saddened to find out that as someone who strives to be a good feminist (as a guy) I'm actually not capable of it (because of male privilege amongst other things).

I know I'm not perfect, always trying to improve etc, but I was disappointed to find out I'll never be able to kick the sexist habit.

Any tips on what I can do? Have my attempts to smash the patriarchy so far been in vain?

I?m now very confused. You've got me worrying that even posting this is in someway sexist...

namechange - I don't have all the solutions about how to overthrow patriarchy. I am committed to doing so and take practical actions in my life to do this. If I had a stepped plan that I thought could overthrow patriarchy, believe you me I would be telling allies about it.

Robin - We are all programmed by patriarchy - men and women although in different ways. You need to

1. Read about patriarchy and sexism and how it is perpetruated by men
2. Question and analyse yourself including how you behave
3. Talk to other men trying to do this as well to share insights and tips.
4. Take practical actions to challenge patriarchy and challenge anti women attitudes in other men

I think it is about recognising that a lot of it is more subtle than rape, assault or even sexist jokes. For example, in meetings at work, I sometimes sit and keep track of overall who is talkng most - women or men. Who is being listened to or taken seriously most and who is being talked over, etc. I am not talking about individuals, but about women and men as a group.

I then think about my own behaviour. Am I more likely to interrupt the woman than the men, do I submit the women's ideas to harsher judgement, etc. It is by analysing what we actually do, that we can discover some of our own unconscious ideas and behaviour.

For example, one of the things some feminists unconsciously do at times, is that they are so grateful when a man supports any feminist cause they rush to support him, explain things, etc. But treat a woman supporting a feminist cause in a more critical manner.

I don't think it is possible to totally deprogramme yourself as it were, but it is always possible I think to improve what you are currently doing.

The role of white people in helping bring about the end of apartheid (as an official policy at least) was as follows IMO;

a) to listen to black people and their fight against an unjust system.

b) to really listen and take on board what was being said and not find ways to deny reality.

c) to listen to what black people needed to approach a situation of justice.

d) to listen to how black people envisaged power structures.

e) to admit to the existence of white privilege and relinquish it.

A similar schema would do wonders for women's liberation. We seem to stumble over the listening bit a lot though.

I try to do all of the above already (raised by some fairly strong feminist women and most, if not all, of my friends, are feminist women) - but like I said, always room for improvement.

And 'more subtle than rape' - what exactly are you smoking?

Robin - since the idea of all men being sexist is apparently such a radical one, the idea that sexism is more subtle than rape, did not seem a leap at all

I think it will be very hard to overthrow a concept, to be honest. It's a lot less tangible than a government. Especially a concept that not even people on here can agree on, never mind in wider society. I wsh you luck though. As Ghandi said, whatever you do may seem insignificant, but it is most important that you do it.

It is not just a concept. It is wider than a government though incorporating institutions, laws, the culture and people's personal relationships.

In terms of achieving this - we did used to have feudalism you know - a totally different way of structuring society without its own belief system.

And even if I never live to see its overthrow, everything we do to make life better for girls and women in the here and now, is important and makes adifference

I don't see it as a particularly radical idea, but I'd like to think it's a contested one. The comments you make above are sensible and something I check myself on on a regular basis - you're right in that they are ingrained from a young age, in men and women, but I also think (hope?) they're correctable.

What I can't work out is why (unless I've misread your argument) women are capable of throwing off the patriarchal brainwashing thing but men aren't.

You say that men and women get different messages and therefore develop in different ways - how? (I think that's what you meant)

And how do you know how those messages are interpreted? What about boys who identify as female growing up? What about boys who grow up in female dominated environments? What about boys who grow up in completely different cultures? Are they all going to be inherently sexist without hope of redemption?

Beach, I agree that that is partly what happened, but there also had to be real actions, firstly to induce an incumbent power to change (economic, sporting, cultural embargoes). And five lots of listening seems a lot .

It also needed full involvement of the dominant whites, who had to want to change. The black and coloured vote was incorporated into the existing power structure, as far as I know - two assemblies, like the UK.

Nobody is capable of totally throwing off patriarchial brainwashing.

Girls/women are taught and shown that they are less important and boys/men that they are more important. And everyone is taught gender ideas i.e. what boys/girls, women/men are really like.

A boy growing up feeling female is still treated as a boy by those around him. Maybe an effeminate or non conforming boy, but a boy none the less.

Boys growing up in female dominant environments - first off all there is no guarantee that those women will still not impart patriarchial ideas or behaviour to the boy - even if they try really hard not to do so. My mum swears she treated my brother and I the same - she didn't. For example, at a really basic level, we both had chores - I was made to do mine, my brother was regularly let off his with feeble excuses.

Also parents are not by any means the only influence on children. School, peers, teachers, tv, toys, adverts, other adults, how they see society being organised e.g. who digs up the roads - all of this also teaches and influences children's ideas and behaviour.

If a society is based on the patriarchy, then yes boys will grow up with ideas and behaviour that supports this including sexist ideas.

Yes, I think lots of listening is the key.

Lots of listening.

No denial.

Relinquishing of privilege.

First step is reconsigning that a status hierarchy exists and that it is wrong.

The actual hows and whys of the specific actions will follow on pretty obviously IMO.

"If a society is based on the patriarchy, then yes boys will grow up with ideas and behaviour that supports this including sexist ideas."

As will the women. And neither can fully throw this off. So by your argument all women and men are sexist.

So why draw a line between the two?

'The actual hows and whys of the specific actions will follow on pretty obviously IMO.'

You see, I think that this is the bit that might seem obvious, but isn't. For example, look at the gender pay gap. The obvious solution is to make pay discrimination illegal. Well, we (in the UK) have done that, but has it worked? The glass ceiling - women execs themselves are divided as to whether quotas are a good thing. Rape and DV - obviously make them illegal, even within marriage, but has that fixed the problem? Most definitely not!

So, if we know the problems, how do we fix them?

Robn - All grls and boys are brought up in a patriarchial society and taught beliefs and behaviour that supports this But they are taught differently. As I said before girls/women are taught and show that they are less important and vice versa for boys Geder stereotypes ad the behaviour taught from these are dfferent for boys and girls.

So women and men do behave differently. And this is why, as I said at the beginning, I chose to be a lesbian

"All grls and boys are brought up in a patriarchial society and taught beliefs and behaviour that supports this But they are taught differently"

Is this fact? Have you accounted for every single culture/society on a planet of 6 billion+ people?