Is sexual orientation a choice?

[WidowWadman]

Julie Bindel seems to think so.

Is it just me or is that actually fairly offensive?

The difference RobinGoodfellow (as I'm sure you are aware because your first post described how you are a man who tries really hard to be a good feminist) is that men have higher status than women in patriarchal society. That is the very definition of what makes a society patriarchal.

This really is feminism 101, so no doubt you are well aware of what this means with regards to the gender binary hierarchy, social order, status groups, identity politics, the politics of oppression, etc.

All classic politics of oppression really! So I'm probably teaching you to suck eggs as a feminist man with a genuine and earnest personal investment in the movement!!

'All boys are taught they are more important than girls?' I would also take issue with this as a sweeping statement. It would not account for girls achieving higher academic results in schools and universities.

Otherwise, are teachers saying 'boys, you are more important but I am going to teach the girls to a higher level'? That doesn't make sense to me.

Ouch.

I probably deserve that.

Or not.

What happens when that diagnosis is out of date?

As Beach said, this is very basic feminism. I don't mean taught in terms of being sat down and told things. But girls are taught they are less imortant by:

• the way girls are expected to be more well behaved than boys
• the way women's bodies are routinely displayed for enjoyment in adverts, etc
• children's stories/toys/ programmes/films where the boy does exciting important stuff and the girls are there in a supporting role

etc, etc

Robin - If you are serious about supporting feminism and fighting patriarchy, a first step would be to respond to posts like this and take the time to educate other men. I am disappointed that you haven't - although sadly not surprised.

Respond how exactly? And how do you know I haven't/don't?

I meant respond to posts above like from namechangeguy asking basic questions about feminism

Oh, ok, that's a fair point.

Eats, i have kept this discussion on a polite level because I am interested in your ideas. However, I fell you are regurgitating feminism 101 rather than actually addressing points. If we were discussing life 50 years ago I could not dispute your points. However, life has moved on. My daughter is looking to pursue science A levels, and then maybe on to university, where she can fully expect to out perform male fellow students. What happens after that - well, we will see!

The fundamentals for a fair and equal society start with education within a sound legal framework. Your points about how she is expected to behave are woolly. The display of male models with perfect pecs (and a full head of hair ) are prevalent within the media. There are men's magazines telling me how to lose my gut in 30 days, or how to beef up to conform to some stereotype of male physical perfection. At the same time there is Gok Wan telling women how to be comfortable in their own skin on prime-time TV.

My daughter had the option of football at school, scouts as well as guides and all the athletic outlets that my son has. She is fortunate though. Not everybody has these options, and it isn't perfect - yet. But to harp back to life as it was in the 1950s is disingenuous.

As Bob Dylan said, the times they are a-changin'

Although I think we're having two different arguments here.

And no, I am not advocating 'all is well, what are feminists worried about', before that accusation is thrown at me. There is still a way to go. I want a fair and equal society for everyone.

I like the spectrum idea of human sexuality. That seems quite helpful, and likely to lead to the most understanding and tolerance all round.

namechange - And I have been polite too

Yes some things have improved - because of feminism and feminists. But lots hasn't. There is a book - the equality myth you might find useful to read.

Education is important - but girls and women still have lower status in society and are still discriminated against.

• girls called whores and sluts for behaviour that boys are praised for?
• the wide availability of porn that is abusive to women that is watched by teens?
• rates of dv against girls in relationships with boyfriends is worryingly high and ormalised and excused by many girls
• women increasingly having surgery on their genitals to "improve their appearance" etc.

Namechangeguy forgive me if I'm incorrect, but are you a man telling women that you know better about their state of oppression than they do?

If so, I agree with Eats, perfect opportunity for RobinGoodfellow to act feministy.

Beach - Yes but Robin is still noticeable by his absence

Eats. All improvement starts with education. It is THE MOST important thing for progress. That is why society should be more equitable for my daughter's generation. Her daughters should have it even better. Eventually, it will be equal, and it will happen because it is the right and moral thing to do.

I have a son and a daughter (I'd be interested to know if you are a parent, but fully understand if you don't want to say). They do the same chores. They are expected to work as hard as each other at school. I have the same high expectations for each of them. Happily, my friends are of the same mind re their own children. They are all subject to bombardment by the media and peer pressure, but my job as their dad is to counteract this as much as I can. As I said to you before, what I do might seem insignificant, but it is most important that I do it.

Having said that, there are limits to my influence. I cannot control what she does to her own body once she reaches adulthood. We are all responsible for our own behaviour, and to say that women alter their genitals, their nose or their breasts purely to satisfy society's blueprint absolves them of any responsibility for their own behaviour. We have to educate our children to see through this media bullshit.

I thought we were a team eh? I'm out fighting the patriarchy IRL - you seem to have Mumsnet covered.

Namechangeboy - yes, things are changing, but still a few generations away from anything approaching parity - and the way things are right now it could be longer than that. Anecdote tells you one thing, data says things are slowing down or getting worse.

I agree it is important that we try and give our children every advantage and that we bring up our children in a way that lets them be individuals rather than conforming to gender stereotypes. But I think you are ignoring or unaware of the affect of other influences in children's lives and this does shape their behaviour and attitudes.

And altering genitals - my point was that there is pressure on girls/women to alter the appearnace of their genitals for cosmetic reasons. There is not the same pressure on boys/woman. Surely being told that as a woma your genitals may not be attractive enough as they are, while men are not told that, is a pretty clear example that women have lower status in society?

Beach, you are incorrect, and you are forgiven [smile ].

I never presume to understand another person's life experiences, especially someone I have never met. I am here to explore ideas.

I can talk about some of the experiences of my daughter as I see them. She is the person I have been referencing throughout. Other thoughts and concepts are not specific to an individual.

The one thing I did ask was for Eats to not regurgitate Feminism 101 to counter points that I had not raised.

Robin - I have to go out now, so I'll leave you to carry on then

"And altering genitals - my point was that there is pressure on girls/women to alter the appearnace of their genitals for cosmetic reasons. There is not the same pressure on boys/woman. Surely being told that as a woma your genitals may not be attractive enough as they are, while men are not told that, is a pretty clear example that women have lower status in society?"

And this is why nobody has ever made millions flogging penis enlargement pills.

Robin, some things are improving and some are getting worse, but I agree that we have a long way to go.

I said 'Having said that, there are limits to my influence. I cannot control what she does to her own body once she reaches adulthood' and 'We have to educate our children to see through this media bullshit.'

Straight afterwards Eats said 'But I think you are ignoring or unaware of the affect of other influences in children's lives and this does shape their behaviour and attitudes.'

I have a feeling that you are not reading what I write, or you are wilfully ignoring it.

I am really going now. But penis enlargement pills are not the same as having actual surgery on your genitals to alter the appearance. The male equivalent would be to have surgery to remove veins on the side of a penis to improve its attractiveness to women.