Is sexual orientation a choice?

[WidowWadman]

Julie Bindel seems to think so.

Is it just me or is that actually fairly offensive?

I wasn't talking to you, ES.

FACT

I think a problem is - but I don't think this belongs on this thread - is that many people are aware of what sexism actually is and how ingrained it is. I am reading the equality illusion at the moment and it's opened my eyes to some things I hadn't really taken on board or been aware of.

Society can't change unless people become more aware of what is wrong with society and accept that it is wrong. That goes for men and women brought up in a sexist world.

But that is another thread and way off the OP.

Rulers, your contribution is enjoyable and insightful as always.

namechange - How do you know you are not sexist?

What is sexism? What is it when a women imposes her views of how a person (male or female) should behave on that person? Sexism or reinforcement of gender behaviour?

Eclectic - Getting rid of patriarchy. No I don't think equality is possible under our present system - so change the system

Yeas, but how would you suggest we eradicate patriarchy if men cannot see past it?

Sexism - Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Using this definition, and self-knowledge, this does not describe my beliefs or behaviour. Therefore I can say that I am not sexist.

I can see at least one example of it in here though

Some men do recognise the patriarchy and that they are sexist

But why would you think women need men to eradicate patriarchy?

namechange - With nice men the sexism is often subtle. For example in a mixed group, then men talk more than the women. Men's views are treated more seriously, etc. Its not always obvious in your face sexism

I do not judge a person by their sex. I might judge them by how they talk, or their beliefs, their manners, their treatment of other people or even their socks. But I do not judge them by their sex. So, however you want to dress it up, I am not sexist. I do not judge a person by their sex. And, just so I am absolutely clear about this, I do not judge people by their sex.

Why should men not be involved in fighting the patriarchy, too? After all it is damaging for everyone.
I really don't get separatism

I would say there's a difference between "all men are sexist" and "all men have male privilege*".

I would agree with the latter rather then the former.

*Although this privilege can be negated/increased by other factors like race, class, sexual orientation.

I think there is a distinct difference between having sexist attitudes and being brought up as a male and how you are treated.

A man may not be sexist in the way they treat people but can expect to be treated "as a male" - such as when in a garage, at a restaurant (who gets the bill / wine), in conversation, at work without realising he has.... male privilege.

I don't think that's sexism. I think that's being brought up as male and not realisng what that means.

I agree that all men have male privilege and that they are sexist.

I didn't say that men can't be involved in fighting the patriarchy - the more the merrier. Just that we don't NEED men to fight the patriarchy

goth

Great post :)

I think everyone is sexist.

Stereotyping is a natural human behaviour, we all do it all the time. We can (and should) llearn to be aware of it and not act on it, question our stereotypes etc but I don't think any one is not sexist on some level.

Don't you think we need men to fight the patriarchy?

I know the word "need" has implications - but can the system of sexism and male privilege be altered without having men on board?

Men need to change their behaviour. How can this be done without men?

Him - I agree that everyone has sexist attitudes. The difference between men and women is that men also have male privilege.

We are all affected in our beliefs and behaviour by the society we are brought up in. We can try to overcome this, but I don't think it is possible for anyone to do this totally

I don't think the status quo can be changed without working together. This is nothing to do with needing men to do it for us. It's just that if you want to change society for the better, you can't do that whilst excluding half of the population.

By insisting that men are not "needed" you create alienation, and ultimately hurt your cause.

Eats, you didn't make it clear earlier that you thought everyone was sexist?

So we've come a long way from "all men are sexist" to "Everyone is sexist" :)

Society has a lot to answer for in the way we are brought up. I look forward to a time when society changes its views on many things.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world"

Gandhi

Enim - Compare it to apartheid. Black people in South Africa didn't need white people to overthrow apartheid. Yes there were some white people involved - good more help. I think about the overthrow of patriarchy in the same way. Its good if men are involved, but we don't need them. What we do need is more women to recognise the patriarchy and its affects in our society and to work to overcome this.

One of the myths about RadFeminism is everyone just talks. Actually what I have learned very quickly is that their is rightly an expectation from other RadFems, that you are involved in actual work to challenge and improve things for girls and women.

Eclectic - i think everyone has sexist attitudes. I think because of patriarchy men have more power and therefore are sexist. It might seem a subtle distinction, but it is different. And i do see the difference in personal relationships, which is where this thread started

And yes women can play a large part in controlling other women's behaviour by reinforcing sexist attitudes

So men behave in a certain sexist way - of varying degrees - because of the patriarchy, that they also help to reinforce. Women will behave in a different way because of patriarchial society. So my female partners are more likely to have less confidence, to give way to men trying to dominate, etc.

So that difference is important to me in deciding which sex i want to have a personal relationship with.

I think that ultimately it did need white people to abolish apartheid. The whites were in charge and it was ultimatlely De Klerk who got rid of it.

The pressure might have come from the black majority but they could not have done it without force or the caving in of the white minority.

I do think it needs males to recognise things are wrong and to alter their behaviour. If more males took on childcare (as an example), took on more part time work - would that not have a major effect on women and career prospects?

Sexist behaviour need men's behaviour to change.