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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

To all those people who have an issue with trans people - please read this

361 replies

enimmead · 05/06/2012 00:44

This is from a transwoman who has been jailed for 41 months. A black transwoman in the USA. I don't know if she is guilty or not. She was at a bar when a bunch of thugs started harassing her. The fact that they had Neo Nazi links was inadmissable in court. A glass got broken and a fight broke out. Ce Ce has been found guilty of stabbing someone and killing him - 41 months in jail (don't worry, it's a male jail).

This is from her blog:

supportcece.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/as-long-as-we-live-in-fear-we-live-in-ignorance/

To the many of us who have struggled, being of the GLBTQ community, this is for you. To those who have triumphed over the idea of conforming to this fascist, hateful society, this is for you. But most importantly, this is for all of our loved ones who have become victims of hate crimes and domestic violence being of the GLBTQ community, specifically Trans men and women, who are singled out and have the highest percentage of victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. My love and prayers go out to the families and loved ones of those who have lost a friend, a brother or sister, a mother or father, an auntie, uncle or cousin, or a partner or spouse to this epidemic. To all those unfortunate cases, this is for you.



In the memories of those who we have lost, it is our duty to put an effort to make a change. We should not have to sit back in the fear of our own lives and well being, or the lives and well being of those we love and care for due to the hate that exist and threatens our safety. We should not have to mourn for the lives of the people we love and have lost due to hate and careless acts. We have to stand up against those who put us down and try to oppress us. We have to enlighten the neophobics of this world and to help them realize the vast and diverse world we live in. because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.



I thank the lord everyday for keeping me here and giving me such a profound mouth and mind to share my experiences and the trials and tribulations I?ve overcame, because honestly, I never thought I would make it past my 16th birthday. To grow up and have that thought at a young age is unsettling. The thought or feeling of knowing or expecting that today could be my last day on earth, only because someone hates me for being the person I felt would make my life happiest, or for being in an abusive and controlling relationship with someone who has no regards or remorse as to how they treat their partner is an unsettling thought. But it?s more unsettling to know that this is our reality, and that these are the issues we have to face on a day-to-day basis. And even with all that we choose to live our lives, and to continue living them proudly with gumption, bravery, and love in our minds and hearts. I know I still have faith in people, and am willing to make a change if they are willing as well.



We all grow up in different communities, with different social categorizations, but when it comes to being GLBTQ, sometimes we?re excluded and put into a category of it?s own, that is demeaning and belittling, and that no matter where you are we are singled out. I grew up in a community that was predominately African-American people. And with the fact of me just being a minority in this society was bad, being African American and trans is an ultimate challenge. I can remember having loaded guns being put to my head and being beat until bloody. Or walking downs the street and being yelled ? a faggot?. I thought because of their ignorance I decided to change my surroundings. So I moved to a suburban community, which were predominately white people. Then, I remember people grabbing their purses and children, like I was a thief and was going to steal their money and kids, and to still be yelled ?queer? or ?faggot?, which made me feel upset and that my efforts of leaving one community to another, went without victory. Also being a victim of domestic violence was also an issue that I had to deal with in my early teenage years. And fortunately I got out of that situation.

The point I was trying to make was that no matter where you go, or community you live in, people will continue to discriminate. And as long as we do not stand up for our equality, we allow them to have the upper hand against us. We allow for them to feel that?s its okay to verbally and physically attack us. And I feel that it is our duty to give these people the awareness and education about whom we truly are, and not whom they assume we are. We have to make sure that we won?t lose any more of our loved ones due to hate crimes and domestic violence. These problems are often over-looked when it comes to GLBTQ people because people feel that it isn?t as important if it happened to a straight person. Which is ironic because these problems affect us disproportionately. I feel that it is our duty to change the minds of those neophobics, because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.



We have to be the matriarchs of this society. To start teaching our younger generations about hate, and why it?s so important not to hate. We have to end the bullying and harassment in our school systems. To organize more community actions and awareness about hate crimes and how to stop them from happening. We need to be leaders and role models for all to learn from. And from that we would be able to help and comfort someone who is unsure about his or her own sexual identity and preference. We will be able to eliminate people?s fears of being victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. To help someone to accept and be comfortable as whomever they choose to be, with no judgments or stereotypic labels attached.



And to all my brothers and sisters of the GLBTQ community, this is for us all. This is for those who are still here, and for those who have passed. With love and determination we can be the leaders. We can make a change. Because, see, what people fail to realize is that, even through their hate, bigotry, conforming, and biased views and actions that are enforced upon us,? love is inevitable and overcomes any and all things. And as long as love is in our mind and hearts, it can show us, even in fear, how to be leaders and role models, to be the leaders to show how to overcome the hate and oppression. Love is powerful enough to change the hearts of the neophobics in this world. Because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance."

---------------



There has been so much hatred and ignorance spouted on this forum and i think some people forget trans people are people who deserve our humanity and support, not our ill informed bile and bigotry. I have been shocked at the level of anger on this thread. I have friends who are trans and they just want to exist and be accepted as people. There are a minority of activists who affect what everyone else does.

You may not accept what they believe. You may not accept the terminology. But accept they are people who are just trying to survive in a very difficult world.

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bobbledunk · 05/06/2012 01:10

Short sentence for killing somebody. Self defence is legal, this individual pleaded guilty to manslaughter to avoid being convicted of murder because it was not self defense. A man was stabbed to death for the crime of heckling, lets be honest if this were a gang attack you really think CeCe wouldn't have been beaten to a pulp even after stabbing the guy? Bollicks. CeCe got away with murder and certain groups are trying to justify this murder by demonising and lying about the victim. As usual. Pure propaganda.

As a woman, if I stabbed every man who whistled/heckled or otherwise offended me I would be declared a pschyopath and locked up (and it would be a long list). Why do trans people think they're so special that they get to kill people who offend them? You want to be a woman then do what women do, carry on walking.

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VashtiBunyan · 05/06/2012 01:27

I really don't know what to say to this.

Do you come on this forum, and read all the really awful things that happen to women, and just think to yourself, 'I really wish all those women on the feminist boards would stop being talking about how biological females are getting murdered, raped and attacked because you know, they're not really human beings, so who cares? I'd better remind them that they have better things they should be doing with their time.

Do you do this to other groups of people? Do you go on to asylum seekers' rights forums and start posting about something bad that has happened to backpacking tourists? What about the child abuse survivor sites, do you go and lecture them about how they should be supporting drowning sailors at sea? I'm willing to bet you don't.

Really bad things have happened to women on this board and to women we know and we care about feminism. We want to do something about what happens to biological females and if women don't try and change things for our daughters, nobody else is going to do it for us. And I am not going to fall into the trap again of moving my focus away from biological females, because that favour never, ever gets returned.

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DioneTheDiabolist · 05/06/2012 01:28

The hatred and distrust of Transgender people by a minority on this forum is truly sad.

For CeCe to be in a male prison is wrong.

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VashtiBunyan · 05/06/2012 01:30

Also, as the treatment of transgender people and the violence they face is a serious and recognised human rights issue, have you thought about asking MN to start a transgender section?

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GothAnneGeddes · 05/06/2012 02:21

Waaaaaaaah! Someone is stealing my gender away from me! Trans people are doom! Doom! X many comments.

Hello O.P, as someone who's believes in the concept of intersectionality, and kyriarchy, I find CeCe's case disturbing on a number of levels. I find equally disturbing that people seem to be so blinded by transphobia that they think someone who is black, trans and poor was given a fair deal by the legal system.

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GothAnneGeddes · 05/06/2012 02:24

Also, I'm pissed off with people thinking they "own" the FWR section. Not all of us are transphobic, some us are more than happy to have trans issues discussed here. And no, I don't think it would take over the entire forum.

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madwomanintheattic · 05/06/2012 04:33

In my opinion, trans issues are pretty key in the entire gender debate, which makes fwr a natural home for discussion.

I don't have any particular comments re cece, but noted that Vashti doesn't have any trans friends. Fwiw, I do, and they are also victims of violence and abuse by men. I have no issue with discussing their victimhood alongside that of what Vashti believes to be real women. I think that male violence is a huge problem largely caused by stereotypical expectations of male behaviour, and that all victims and potential victims should be considering how best to remove the threat together.

Note - not counselling. I don't give a monkeys if you want separate counselling because the thought of a penis lurking anywhere in the vicinity is too much. I don't get it, but I respect your view. But all potential victims should be working together to erase the nonsense.

Surely fwr is the exact place where all victims of gender discrimination should be free to post and share their thoughts?

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AbigailAdams · 05/06/2012 06:28

Who on earth has said that trans aren't oppressed? Who has said they aren't victims of violence? What have Vashti's friends got to do with it? I don't know whether your post meant to be so dismissive of women and their reality and feelings madwoman, but it is.

The fact is that many millions of women grow up not knowing if they are going to reach 16, just like Cece. Truly terrible things happen to women everyday because of their biology. And once more

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AbigailAdams · 05/06/2012 06:51

Sorry don't know what happened there, posted before I finished editing/typing.

As Vashti says the favour is never ever returned in the fight against oppression. We have even had a transgender person on here telling us what to focus on with regards abortion, something they will.never ever experience. That same person also hadn't experienced body image pressures when growing up that many many teenage women do, and couldn't understand why we didn't just rise above it. Oh the irony and the male privilege that is all wrapped up there.

Why should we ally ourselves with people when there is no evidence to support that they are in fact our allies?

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BelleDameSansMerci · 05/06/2012 07:49

I may have missed something in this debate - quite probably because I get so cross with it.

Surely, the point is that biological women (for want of a better term) just want and need a forum which is exclusively theirs; where there is a shared understanding created by society's treatment of women from birth; where they are safe from the entitlement and privilege which is unthinkingly/unknowingly (in many cases) a part of having been born male?

We see that sense of entitlement on posts from men on here who are supportive and they often can't see or are embarrassed when it's pointed out. Why shouldn't biological women have their own space? Why is that so wrong?

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icepole · 05/06/2012 07:51

I am still trying to get my head round all the issues on this one but I can't see why it is so wrong to want to protect women only spaces. I don't think protecting those = wanting to be abusive to the trams community. I would not have an issue referring to someone in the manner in which they want to be referred to but I can also think of times when I would want the space I am in to be for women born women. It seems this makes me transphobic and so I keep reading both sides to try and make sense of my discomfort. Maybe my discomfort is wrong and I need to address it but it is there at the moment. I also feel uncomfortable with how brutal the medical interventions seem to be for people who want to transition. I don't like the idea that people who are probably quite vulnerable are being cut up by the medical institution to make them 'right'. Surely there has to be a better solution than that.

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BelleDameSansMerci · 05/06/2012 08:05

icepole, you said much more clearly than I did.

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Thistledew · 05/06/2012 08:09

One can have sympathy for an individual who is struggling with their identity and support that individual's right to live free from bigotry, whilst at the same time holding the view that the answer being presented to them for the 'problem' of their identity issues is not the right one, either for them or for other members of society.

There are no right answers, only a number of possible solutions. Just because two people disagree on what the solution should be does not make one right and one wrong. It does not make one of those people a bigot, provided they hold their views from a position of logic and rationality, and are prepared to treat the other person with respect.

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enimmead · 05/06/2012 08:15

vashi

"Do you come on this forum, and read all the really awful things that happen to women, and just think to yourself, 'I really wish all those women on the feminist boards would stop being talking about how biological females are getting murdered, raped and attacked because you know, they're not really human beings, so who cares? I'd better remind them that they have better things they should be doing with their time.

Do you do this to other groups of people? Do you go on to asylum seekers' rights forums and start posting about something bad that has happened to backpacking tourists? What about the child abuse survivor sites, do you go and lecture them about how they should be supporting drowning sailors at sea? I'm willing to bet you don't.
"

I think a better comparison would be reading on a forum about people spouting ignorance about a subject they know nothing about, about lots of hate talk about such people and thinking they are experts.

I doubt that a child abuse site would talk about and victimise drowning sailors Confused

There are other sites which damn other people who are not like them, aren't there .

I resent the comparison to child abuse survivors and drowning sailors.

Most trans threads have been started by feminists, havent they and they have led to 1000 comments.

I think some people on here forget that hate talk and denial of existence sounds like things other people in history used to say.

(And I do not know the rights and wrongs of the case - it is the sentiments in the blog that are important)

And please don't tell me what to post on a forum things you think are irrelevant to women when this forum seems obsessed by trans.

Becaause that reeks of entitlement.

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icepole · 05/06/2012 08:24

One of the blogs I read contained a post from someone giving a big long list of why women born women would never know what it is like to be a trans woman. And they were right, so why can't that work both ways. I am sure there will be cross over in the issues we face but there is also difference and those differences are important to both groups. It doesn't make sense to me for one group to highlight all
the different issues that they face while at the same time ask another group to ignore theirs.

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enimmead · 05/06/2012 08:27

abigail

You ask why should you wrap ourselves up in the feelings of trans people.

You have missed the point of the OP. This forum talks a lot about trans people. People claim to be experts and to know whats best for them. Some people deny their existence.

So is it right for people to complain when I post a thread reminding people that trans people are still people and have feelings?

On a forum that is supposed to be about feminism but spends a lot of time discussing trans issues?

Because it reminds me of other people who go online to claim to know what's best for people, deny their existence and complain about their rights.

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Beachcomber · 05/06/2012 08:30

Oh please.

Nobody on this forum has denied the existence of transpeople.

Nobody on this forum has suggested in any way that they do not wish transpeople happy and peaceful lives, free from harassment.

We have discussed a political viewpoint and a political analysis.

What on earth are you trying to imply with your OP? That because we hold certain political views that we support people being heckled and glassed? I don't know the ins and outs of this case but what exactly do you think the law should have done to a person who killed someone and plead guilty to manslaughter?

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Beachcomber · 05/06/2012 08:33

And we happen to be talking quite a lot about the politics of all this at the moment because a feminist conference just got closed down by transactivists.

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Bibulus · 05/06/2012 08:34

How is calling M to F transpeople 'men' NOT denying their existence?

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enimmead · 05/06/2012 08:37

beachcomber

Everyone? I can name at least one.

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Beachcomber · 05/06/2012 08:38

Oh The Irony.

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enimmead · 05/06/2012 08:38

Who has a massive issue with trans people.

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enimmead · 05/06/2012 08:40

And who would send their son to be cured.

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PlentyOfPubeGardens · 05/06/2012 08:41

I am well aware that the majority of trans are just trying to live their lives and be accepted. I know lots of trans through both friendship and work and this ugly politics never comes up - we manage to like and respect each other and respect each others' spaces.

My argument is with the way the law is drafted and with the minority of trans activists who are intent on pushing that law to its ridiculous extremes, to the detriment of women. This is happening NOW. Women only spaces are under threat NOW. Conferences are being cancelled NOW.

I think the Equalities Act and the Gender Recognition Act have been knitted together out of rainbows and unicorns by probably very well-meaning people who just Didn't Think It Through. I don't think either piece of legislation is fit for purpose.

The prisons thing - the way I look at it, prisons are made of bricks and mortar. Wouldn't it be easier to rethink prisons than to rethink human beings? Why can't we have prisons that are safe and dignified for everyone?

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BelleDameSansMerci · 05/06/2012 08:42

How is saying that someone was born a biological male/female (which is a clear, physical fact) denying the existence of transgender?

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