To all those people who have an issue with trans people - please read this

[enimmead]

This is from a transwoman who has been jailed for 41 months. A black transwoman in the USA. I don't know if she is guilty or not. She was at a bar when a bunch of thugs started harassing her. The fact that they had Neo Nazi links was inadmissable in court. A glass got broken and a fight broke out. Ce Ce has been found guilty of stabbing someone and killing him - 41 months in jail (don't worry, it's a male jail).

This is from her blog:

supportcece.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/as-long-as-we-live-in-fear-we-live-in-ignorance/

To the many of us who have struggled, being of the GLBTQ community, this is for you. To those who have triumphed over the idea of conforming to this fascist, hateful society, this is for you. But most importantly, this is for all of our loved ones who have become victims of hate crimes and domestic violence being of the GLBTQ community, specifically Trans men and women, who are singled out and have the highest percentage of victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. My love and prayers go out to the families and loved ones of those who have lost a friend, a brother or sister, a mother or father, an auntie, uncle or cousin, or a partner or spouse to this epidemic. To all those unfortunate cases, this is for you.

In the memories of those who we have lost, it is our duty to put an effort to make a change. We should not have to sit back in the fear of our own lives and well being, or the lives and well being of those we love and care for due to the hate that exist and threatens our safety. We should not have to mourn for the lives of the people we love and have lost due to hate and careless acts. We have to stand up against those who put us down and try to oppress us. We have to enlighten the neophobics of this world and to help them realize the vast and diverse world we live in. because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.

I thank the lord everyday for keeping me here and giving me such a profound mouth and mind to share my experiences and the trials and tribulations I?ve overcame, because honestly, I never thought I would make it past my 16th birthday. To grow up and have that thought at a young age is unsettling. The thought or feeling of knowing or expecting that today could be my last day on earth, only because someone hates me for being the person I felt would make my life happiest, or for being in an abusive and controlling relationship with someone who has no regards or remorse as to how they treat their partner is an unsettling thought. But it?s more unsettling to know that this is our reality, and that these are the issues we have to face on a day-to-day basis. And even with all that we choose to live our lives, and to continue living them proudly with gumption, bravery, and love in our minds and hearts. I know I still have faith in people, and am willing to make a change if they are willing as well.

We all grow up in different communities, with different social categorizations, but when it comes to being GLBTQ, sometimes we?re excluded and put into a category of it?s own, that is demeaning and belittling, and that no matter where you are we are singled out. I grew up in a community that was predominately African-American people. And with the fact of me just being a minority in this society was bad, being African American and trans is an ultimate challenge. I can remember having loaded guns being put to my head and being beat until bloody. Or walking downs the street and being yelled ? a faggot?. I thought because of their ignorance I decided to change my surroundings. So I moved to a suburban community, which were predominately white people. Then, I remember people grabbing their purses and children, like I was a thief and was going to steal their money and kids, and to still be yelled ?queer? or ?faggot?, which made me feel upset and that my efforts of leaving one community to another, went without victory. Also being a victim of domestic violence was also an issue that I had to deal with in my early teenage years. And fortunately I got out of that situation.

The point I was trying to make was that no matter where you go, or community you live in, people will continue to discriminate. And as long as we do not stand up for our equality, we allow them to have the upper hand against us. We allow for them to feel that?s its okay to verbally and physically attack us. And I feel that it is our duty to give these people the awareness and education about whom we truly are, and not whom they assume we are. We have to make sure that we won?t lose any more of our loved ones due to hate crimes and domestic violence. These problems are often over-looked when it comes to GLBTQ people because people feel that it isn?t as important if it happened to a straight person. Which is ironic because these problems affect us disproportionately. I feel that it is our duty to change the minds of those neophobics, because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.

We have to be the matriarchs of this society. To start teaching our younger generations about hate, and why it?s so important not to hate. We have to end the bullying and harassment in our school systems. To organize more community actions and awareness about hate crimes and how to stop them from happening. We need to be leaders and role models for all to learn from. And from that we would be able to help and comfort someone who is unsure about his or her own sexual identity and preference. We will be able to eliminate people?s fears of being victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. To help someone to accept and be comfortable as whomever they choose to be, with no judgments or stereotypic labels attached.

And to all my brothers and sisters of the GLBTQ community, this is for us all. This is for those who are still here, and for those who have passed. With love and determination we can be the leaders. We can make a change. Because, see, what people fail to realize is that, even through their hate, bigotry, conforming, and biased views and actions that are enforced upon us,? love is inevitable and overcomes any and all things. And as long as love is in our mind and hearts, it can show us, even in fear, how to be leaders and role models, to be the leaders to show how to overcome the hate and oppression. Love is powerful enough to change the hearts of the neophobics in this world. Because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance."

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There has been so much hatred and ignorance spouted on this forum and i think some people forget trans people are people who deserve our humanity and support, not our ill informed bile and bigotry. I have been shocked at the level of anger on this thread. I have friends who are trans and they just want to exist and be accepted as people. There are a minority of activists who affect what everyone else does.

You may not accept what they believe. You may not accept the terminology. But accept they are people who are just trying to survive in a very difficult world.

What it is to be a woman has been redefined (by male dominated society) - and that is just dandy. No issue there, no denying women any part of their identity or existence as an identifiable group with a concrete biological, social and political reality. No siree.

Calling a biological man who has a penis and testes 'a man' however is denying the existence of transpeople.

Oookaaaay.

I'm with the programme.

It gets easier this double think doesn't it after a bit of practice?

You are completely missing the point of the OP.

But I can see this is going to go down the what is trans route rather than trying to understand trans people as people and deserving our humanity when they are trying to survive in a very difficult gender orientated world.

Enimmead, instead of making passive aggressive posts about dittany, how about you answer the very relevant questions I asked you about your OP?

Beachcomber - there were frequent posts which denied the existance of trans people sand kept calling transwomen "men in dresses". There were several postings decrying how unfair it is that transpeople are protected by ant-discrimination legislation.

In the light of that I don't buy "Nobody on this forum has denied the existence of transpeople.Nobody on this forum has suggested in any way that they do not wish transpeople happy and peaceful lives, free from harassment"

There was at least one transperson on this forum, Kim, which has been harassed and attacked and spoken down to in ways which wouldn't have happened if her attackers had assumed she was a woman.

You say "We have discussed a political viewpoint and a political analysis."

That's a cop-out. It may be a viewpoint, but it's one which is discriminating against a hugely marginalised group of people, and it's right to call you out on it.

There has been a lot of discussion about trans issues because they affect women. I think it's very important that women are allowed to discuss issues which affect them.

Oh I understand that transpeople are people and humans with human rights and I well understand the gender binary. I have said numerous times on MN that I wish transpeople happy and peaceful lives and freedom from patriarchal discrimination.

I'm really interested in what you think the law should have done to this person who killed another person and plead guilty to manslaughter?

There's discussion and there's hatred. I think a distinction needs to be made between the two.

Sometimes, having read the thread, as well as other threads in the past, I think that discussion crosses over into hatred.

Ce Ce was subject to hate talk by 2 women and a man. I wonder what kind of things were said to her and if anything like that has been said on here?

That's the distinction.

How is calling a man wearing a dress 'a man in a dress' denying the existence of transpeople, but calling a person with a penis and testes (and no uterus, ovaries, vagina, clitoris or XX chromosomes) 'a woman', not denying of women's existence?

(I would never call a MTF transperson a man in a dress to their face as I can see it would hurt them and I wouldn't want to do that to another human being. I do however reserve the right to discuss the politics of all this and use appropriate biological language.)

She was found guilty of manslaughter.

"In the early morning of June 5th, CeCe and her friends were walking past the Schooner Tavern when a white man and two white women decided to harass them. Her attackers hurled racist and transphobic insults at CeCe and her friends, suggesting CeCe was ?dressed as a woman? to ?rape? before one person smashed her drink into CeCe?s face, significantly injuring her. A fight broke out and a white male attacker was fatally stabbed. The attack on CeCe which began the fight was ignored, and she was taken into custody, charged with second degree murder. "

I don't know - I think discussion of the case is irrelevant to the OP but I think that if this case involved a white woman who had been subject to such an attack, there might have been a different verdict based on my perception of the US legal system.

She has been found guilty and has 41 months in a male prison. Will she be safe or does she pose a risk to women? But that is a separate issue - a trans issue and also an issue that has regularly been discussed on here.

I just think people need to think about where valid debate and discussion crosses to what could be perceived as hate talk.

But where is that line?

Ah, you wouldn't do it to their faces, you just write it where they and anyone else can read it, because in your world being written about hurts less?

Sorry but I disagree with how the poster Kim was engaged with on MN. I think this poster was given a lot of space. I think people were extremely restrained when comments were made about 'not having ambition' and so on being a womanly trait for example. However I don't wish to discuss Kim in the third person like this - I think it is a bit rude.

Enimmead. Just to make it clear , can I ask , what was the point you were trying to make with the op ?

I just read it again , someone got put in prision for killing another person , because they were heckled felt " threatened" . ( fwiw heckling and harassing is always wrong IMO , but it's nowhere near killing someone...and although the trans did not start the fight , when you break glass to use as a weapon , your intending to hurt someone very badly ) .

Trans person deserved to go to jail for killing .

As to whether they were put in a male prision or a female prision , I think that judgement was probably made taking into consideration the level of violence used against the person who ended up dead.

I know some might argue for human rights and all that , but is the point of prision not punishment ? And to be punished ,should you not loose some of those rights for the time in which incarceration occurs ? .

That comment really bugged you - do you think you would have listened to her if she had tried to explain what she meant?

droves - the blog is the point. Not the crime. The blog and how people are perceived.

I think that is a heartwarming blog about acceptance.

droves - the glass was broken by the man - a man smashed it in her face.

Yes, I knew you would pick up on that WW rather than any of the political analysis in my posts.

I nearly wrote that I would never refer to MTF transpeople as 'men in dresses' - I'm pretty sure that I have never done this. Not my style. I wouldn't do it to a person's face, I wouldn't write it on a public forum and I wouldn't write it in a private space either. I wouldn't do that because I think it isn't very nice terminology.

I do however reserve the right to hold the opinion that a someone with a penis and testes who is wearing feminine clothing is not a woman though. I reserve the right to think that a man wearing a dress is a man wearing a dress (a statement of fact) - this is not the same as calling a person or a whole group of people 'men in dresses' which is intended to be dismissive (an insult).

I suspect that the important nuance between the two positions will be twisted and misrepresented though.

Are you sure enimmead? Everything I have read says that the glass injury was inflicted by a woman (who was convicted for it) and that MacDonald then pulled out a pair of scissors and stabbed the man in the heart - he died of this injury.

I'm only looking at that one report and I was not there so I cannot imagine what it must have been like to have been subjected to horrendous hate talk, being called a with a dick (not a man with a penis) and told you were dressed to rape?

And then to have a bottle smashed in your face.

I cannot imagine what it must have been like for them.

Where does such hate talk come from?

Oh I agree the harassment and heckling sounds terrible.

I read the glassing was done with a cocktail glass, not a bottle. And that the woman who did it was (rightly) convicted.

The hate talk is awful I agree.

The stabbing and killing of another human being (no matter how full of hate talk) is pretty out of order too.

Where does such hate talk come from?

Well you know what eminmead it doesn't come from feminists as Beachcomber pointed out upthread. It comes from the patriarchy.

I think implying that MNers use the sort of language CeCe MacDonald's harassers used, is also out of order.

"Women only spaces are under threat NOW". - Pubes

Nope. They are only under threat if they refuse to let women in.

"I think implying that MNers use the sort of language CeCe MacDonald's harassers used, is also out of order"

Maybe not the swearwords, but other than that we've seen plenty of that language used by MNers on here over the past few days.

I disagree WW we haven't seen any of that type of language at all.