To all those people who have an issue with trans people - please read this

[enimmead]

This is from a transwoman who has been jailed for 41 months. A black transwoman in the USA. I don't know if she is guilty or not. She was at a bar when a bunch of thugs started harassing her. The fact that they had Neo Nazi links was inadmissable in court. A glass got broken and a fight broke out. Ce Ce has been found guilty of stabbing someone and killing him - 41 months in jail (don't worry, it's a male jail).

This is from her blog:

supportcece.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/as-long-as-we-live-in-fear-we-live-in-ignorance/

To the many of us who have struggled, being of the GLBTQ community, this is for you. To those who have triumphed over the idea of conforming to this fascist, hateful society, this is for you. But most importantly, this is for all of our loved ones who have become victims of hate crimes and domestic violence being of the GLBTQ community, specifically Trans men and women, who are singled out and have the highest percentage of victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. My love and prayers go out to the families and loved ones of those who have lost a friend, a brother or sister, a mother or father, an auntie, uncle or cousin, or a partner or spouse to this epidemic. To all those unfortunate cases, this is for you.

In the memories of those who we have lost, it is our duty to put an effort to make a change. We should not have to sit back in the fear of our own lives and well being, or the lives and well being of those we love and care for due to the hate that exist and threatens our safety. We should not have to mourn for the lives of the people we love and have lost due to hate and careless acts. We have to stand up against those who put us down and try to oppress us. We have to enlighten the neophobics of this world and to help them realize the vast and diverse world we live in. because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.

I thank the lord everyday for keeping me here and giving me such a profound mouth and mind to share my experiences and the trials and tribulations I?ve overcame, because honestly, I never thought I would make it past my 16th birthday. To grow up and have that thought at a young age is unsettling. The thought or feeling of knowing or expecting that today could be my last day on earth, only because someone hates me for being the person I felt would make my life happiest, or for being in an abusive and controlling relationship with someone who has no regards or remorse as to how they treat their partner is an unsettling thought. But it?s more unsettling to know that this is our reality, and that these are the issues we have to face on a day-to-day basis. And even with all that we choose to live our lives, and to continue living them proudly with gumption, bravery, and love in our minds and hearts. I know I still have faith in people, and am willing to make a change if they are willing as well.

We all grow up in different communities, with different social categorizations, but when it comes to being GLBTQ, sometimes we?re excluded and put into a category of it?s own, that is demeaning and belittling, and that no matter where you are we are singled out. I grew up in a community that was predominately African-American people. And with the fact of me just being a minority in this society was bad, being African American and trans is an ultimate challenge. I can remember having loaded guns being put to my head and being beat until bloody. Or walking downs the street and being yelled ? a faggot?. I thought because of their ignorance I decided to change my surroundings. So I moved to a suburban community, which were predominately white people. Then, I remember people grabbing their purses and children, like I was a thief and was going to steal their money and kids, and to still be yelled ?queer? or ?faggot?, which made me feel upset and that my efforts of leaving one community to another, went without victory. Also being a victim of domestic violence was also an issue that I had to deal with in my early teenage years. And fortunately I got out of that situation.

The point I was trying to make was that no matter where you go, or community you live in, people will continue to discriminate. And as long as we do not stand up for our equality, we allow them to have the upper hand against us. We allow for them to feel that?s its okay to verbally and physically attack us. And I feel that it is our duty to give these people the awareness and education about whom we truly are, and not whom they assume we are. We have to make sure that we won?t lose any more of our loved ones due to hate crimes and domestic violence. These problems are often over-looked when it comes to GLBTQ people because people feel that it isn?t as important if it happened to a straight person. Which is ironic because these problems affect us disproportionately. I feel that it is our duty to change the minds of those neophobics, because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.

We have to be the matriarchs of this society. To start teaching our younger generations about hate, and why it?s so important not to hate. We have to end the bullying and harassment in our school systems. To organize more community actions and awareness about hate crimes and how to stop them from happening. We need to be leaders and role models for all to learn from. And from that we would be able to help and comfort someone who is unsure about his or her own sexual identity and preference. We will be able to eliminate people?s fears of being victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. To help someone to accept and be comfortable as whomever they choose to be, with no judgments or stereotypic labels attached.

And to all my brothers and sisters of the GLBTQ community, this is for us all. This is for those who are still here, and for those who have passed. With love and determination we can be the leaders. We can make a change. Because, see, what people fail to realize is that, even through their hate, bigotry, conforming, and biased views and actions that are enforced upon us,? love is inevitable and overcomes any and all things. And as long as love is in our mind and hearts, it can show us, even in fear, how to be leaders and role models, to be the leaders to show how to overcome the hate and oppression. Love is powerful enough to change the hearts of the neophobics in this world. Because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance."

---------------

There has been so much hatred and ignorance spouted on this forum and i think some people forget trans people are people who deserve our humanity and support, not our ill informed bile and bigotry. I have been shocked at the level of anger on this thread. I have friends who are trans and they just want to exist and be accepted as people. There are a minority of activists who affect what everyone else does.

You may not accept what they believe. You may not accept the terminology. But accept they are people who are just trying to survive in a very difficult world.

Hmmm - Or maybe just wanting to speak the truth?

No they are deliberately doing it, as they have no respect.

Sorry. You can make the same points respectfully.

eats I agree people on here have condemned attacks.

There is a lot of vicious stuff out there in internet world. People can say what they really think in privacy.

People are also influenced by what you may think is harmless but just adds more fuel to their fire of hatred.

And that's how we get people attacking other people - be they gay, women, disabled, Muslims, non-muslims, black.

I would have no doubt that some men go onto forums, see that someone does not think rape means rape in some circumstances and then goes out and thinks they have done nothing wrong when they rape someone. Because they have been influenced by someones opinion.

The internet can be a dangerous breeding ground.

Just realised the Conway Hall isn't in North Wales! Thought it was an odd place for a conference!

Most of the bad people invited to the Conway Hall were there before I was born. I don't think you can keep judging them on what was done in the 70s.

"The extreme language by both sides is a problem as extreme language can lead to violence and hatred." Yup, that.

"You know full well that Radical Feminists are under attack at the moment from Transactivists and their allies. Why would we not be concerned at this?". Or, transpeople under attack from Rad Fems. Just depends on your viewpoint.

"Especially given that the penis is the item that bestows on its owners a multitude of benefits." Sound like a magic wand!

"But Tiggy you aren't doing that - you are pointing out how many posts got deleted." It all add to the bad aroma of hate. We need to use the Febreeze of sticking to the MN guidelines or else somebody might suffer from the Shake and Vac of a ban to put the freshness back.

I also don't get the trans hating. Trans women are just as vulnerable to domestic and sexual violence. I think it is cruel to not allow a trans woman to identify with other women when they don't feel they can identify with other men. Trans women, living as women, face the same Injustices as biological women. It makes no difference what genitals they are born with. I wonder what many of the trans haters would do if they had a child who announced they had issues with their gender? I just don't understand how anyone who believes in women's rights can condemn any other (often persecuted) minority. No other topic is so "exclusive". This is mumsnet and we have men and non-parents on here.

I don't know about MNs approach to such posts - I don't think such posts should be left up if they are hatred.

And I think there is a difference between "questioning trans" and "offensive language".

It's up to you to decide where you think that difference is. For me, it's about respecting if someone wants to be called "she" and not throwing comments at them that the other person would find offensive but you would think are just an opinion.

It's called empathy.

And the equality act that is relevant in this case and now makes things that were illegal now illegal is the Equality Act 2010.

So yeah. Good argument there Dittany.

*were legal now illegal

Does anyone here realise the amount of force it would take to stab someone through the heart with sissors ? Through skin , muscle and bone ?

I think that is why Cece has been sent to a mans prision . The male prision guards will be large enough to control her if she kicks off.

Sorry radfems , but I know it sounds sexist ,but sometimes a woman wouldn't physically be able to restrain a large man or trans person ( given that trans are often larger and still stronger than born women even with the hormones ect ) .

A logic decision really .

I didn't - someone else did.

I don't think your answer should be deleted. I think your answer is extremely important.

The Marissa Alexander (there she has a name) case is horrific, but the sentence was because state law concerning mandatory sentences for firing a gun while committing a felony (prosecution claimed that because his children were in the room, it's aggravated assault, she was offered shorter sentences via plea bargin but turned them down) , it's called the 10-20-life law. Phone isn't letting me link, but it is mentioned in news articles about her.

It is a dreadful case and I'm certain being black and a woman (+ not sure of her financial circumstances) worked against her and there is certainly a discussion to be had at who these laws are aimed at (usually black people).

But because off the differing state law, you can't compare her case to Cece's.

Massively, massively insensitive to place Irish Republicans along side BNP, and then call them scumbag men. A rather ignorant and charmless post there, I'm afraid.

Enough with the dittany bashing please !

That question just aimed at her is unfair .

If you can't ask everyone equally then don't target her . It's not like your asking her to explain something , your goading. Not very buddhist .

realhousewife - sadly lots of people are vulnerable to sexual and other types of violence. Of course that is very wrong. But you do know that most Trans people do not have any genital surgery? Many Trans people do not pass? Some Trans people behave very sexist and inappropriately?

I used to think like you. Then I began to see in real life the impact of letting Trans people into women only spaces. So about 20 years ago the first Trans person I met was a MtoF who in spaces for women was going round wanting to talk to young women about their periods and saying they had periods too and had cramps. Many of the young women complained to the organisers, the organisers spoke to the Trans person who said they were being transphobic and of course because they were a woman they did have periods.

I dismissed this as an isolated individual. Then began to meet other Trans people in lesbain only spaces who dominated and were sexist. It was only then that I began to read more and understand and agree with the political argument against this.

But accepting Trans people in their chosen gender in every single situation has consequences in the real world. Would you be happy for your daughter to share communal changing rooms or showers with a Trans MtoF with a penis? Because this is the real life consequences of acceptance.

And if anyone else wants to say what they would do if their child came out trans, feel free to add your contribution.

droves - what the actual fuck? So any woman strong enough to stab someone should be going to a man's prison, as physically strong women can't possibly be real women? Seriously?

Not having been there at the scene when Cece stabbed that guy, it's impossible for me to judge what exactly happened, and whether it was self defence or attack or whatever. I don't trust the US justice system enough to believe that every conviction of a black member of a minority group stands up to scrutiny.

The assumptions that she must be guilty because she's got a penis, and that she got off lightly because she got a penis (because being trans in a male prison must be really a barrell of fun), and the amounts of force she used etc are no better than any other armchair analysis of whoever must have been guilty of whatever because they looked a bit shifty/had a picture of them being drunk on facebook etc etc. I thought the trial by MN was in the "In the News" subforum?