Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

Well, you've stated that "A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women"

Even if that is true for 99.99% of the population, it isn't true for everyone

Why would a FTM want to be in a woman-only space? She's saying she's a man. But yes a woman who wants to be in a woman-only space is welcome. FTM don't become men, they are still women, so she'd be welcome.

Man is a noun, meaning adult male human, Bennifer. There isn't an sophistry in describing a man as a male.

I don't think the existence of a third category proves that the two other categories aren't mutually exclusive. People are so odd about sex in the way they want to deny it. Bennifer how do you think you arrived on this planet if it wasn't because of two people from mutually exclusive sexes reproducing to create you?

But male and female are mutually exclusive. They have particular definitions.

Hotness and coldness are relative; male and female are not. In scientific terms we would perhaps more properly describe something as getting hotter. Or perhaps a more appropriate analogy would be that one thing is 15 degrees and another thing is 0 degrees, and a third thing is 7 degrees. The existence of 7 degrees doesn't suddenly make 15 degrees C and ) degrees C overlapping categories.

The only real justification for supporting trans I've seen on this thread is that these men feel very strongly that they are women (or vice versa) so we should support them.

I still don't see why feelings should trump physical reality, and it hasn't been explained.

If the justification isn't valid that men feel they are woman (or women feel they are men) - what about lesbian and gay people?

They "feel" they are lesbian or gay - why should they be supported?

Could it also be explained what intersex has to do with a man who has XY chromosomes, male hormones in his body and a penis and testicles claiming to be a woman. Because I can't see how those two things are connected in any logical way.

Lesbian and gay people don't claim to be anything other than what they physcially are.

An exact analogy to trans would be a white person from a white ethnic background claiming that they were black and must be supported in that. Including accessing services or benefits that were reserved for people from ethnic minorities who are opppressed in our white supremacist society.

But if I as a straight woman feel uncomfortable sharing my woman only space with a lesbian then she should, logically, be made to leave?

And if not, why not?

And BTW the arguments have been gone over on other threads, but there are medical conditions where the sexes are mixed up.

And legally if a transgendered person either MtoF or FtoM satisfies the requirements of the relevant legislation then they are legally the other sex and should be treated as such.

Because the term 'woman' is not about sexual orientation.

If a space was based on sexual orientation, then I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be for lesbians only, but then it would be described as a lesbian space, not a woman's space.

But the notion of "safe" spaces without transgendered individuals keeps being mentioned.

It was a lesbian middle aged woman who tried to abduct my children. Which I have said before on here.

Therefore I feel unsafe with the idea of lesbians being around my children. It makes me and my children uncomfortable.

Therefore all lesbians should be excluded and sent somewhere else since it makes me uncomfortable.

There are not medical conditions where the sexes are 'mixed up.' There are physical states where a person has a different set of characteristics to those of either a male or a female. They're people not a box of dolly mixtures. There are a number of different and very specific human states which are other than male or female. We refer to these collectively as intersex because it would take a long time to list all of the different, separate states. In much the same way that the term disabled doesn't mean your legs are a bit mixed up. It refers to a number of different human physical states.

Actually it's the other way around hathor - in a lesbian only space it would be quite reaonsble to ask a straight woman to leave.

In the same way that it's OK in a woman-only space to ask a man to leave even if he is claiming to be a woman.

People in the dominant class don't have the right to exclude people from the oppressed class. However that is not correct the other way around. Historically and currently oppressed groups have the right to self-organise and to set boundaries.

There is no way a man should be expecting entry into a woman's shelter for example, either as a service user or as staff or volunteer.

It isn't true to say when babies are born we know what sex they are.Androgen insensitivity syndrome causes children who are XY chromosomally to develop physically as female,either completely or partially.
So are they male or female?
Their chromosomal makeup won't be relevant to how they are treated in everyday life,how they look will be though.

But Nyac I'm saying it should be a straight women only space and all lesbians should be asked to leave as they make me uncomfortable.

I don't like sharing my space with lesbians. The might do THINGS to my children. They cannot understand how I feel as a straight woman that a lesbian tried to abduct my children. They cannot share my reality of reacting to that as a straight woman.

Therefore they should be put out of any shared space that I have to share with them.

But straight people are in the dominant class, whilst lesbians are currently and historically oppressed.

You don't have the right as a straight person to exclude lesbians, because that would be bigotry.

However if lesbians want to have lesbian only spaces, then that is reasonable. In the same way it is OK for women to exclude men from women-only spaces.

Hathor, if you want to join or set up a private support group that is for heterosexual women to discuss particular experiences that apply to them, that is up to you.

That is rather a different issue to biological sex, where not only are the particular support groups, but there are also a wide range of facilities all across society which have traditionally segregated people by their biological sex. Everyone is socialised from an early age to differentiate in various situations between men and women. We do not as a society differentiate to anywhere near the same extent based on sexual orientation. That doesn't mean that in certain specific situations you cannot differentiate.

But transgendered people are in the minority and are oppressed.

Therefore to exclude them would be bigotry.

And its not about lesbians having lesbian only spaces, it's about excluding lesbians from a shared space.

There is a difference.

Hathor you're displaying anti-lesbianism. Is that what you want to do?

If you're trying to insinuate that MTF trans are oppressed by women, you couldn't be further from the truth. Men/male humans currently and have historically dominated women and have imposed their will on us. This current redefinition of a woman to include men, is yet another example.

And there isn't any category of person that you can expect to never have to share space with anyway. We all have to share space with everyone some of the time. That doesn't mean that all space has to be shared all of the time.

hathor,I'm afraid they are still more oppressed than you so you can't ask them to leave.Is a MtoF person more or less oppressed than an average woman though? Or than a straight,white,middle class woman? Do chromosomes trump everything else?

Women are oppressed by men. To erase our reality and allow men claiming to be women to trample over our boundaries is bigotry.

Nyac - Transgendered individuals have not historically oppressed women.