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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

631 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 19:25

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

OP posts:
SeaHouses · 08/05/2012 12:47

Most people are minorities in one way or another Hathor. Gay asian men are a minority. It doesn't mean they can legally demand to attend a woman only antenatal class.

Nyac · 08/05/2012 12:48

In fact trans is one of the best examples of how extensive male domination really is. Women aren't even allowed to define ourselves any more, we have to accept a male definition of a woman which turns out to be "what a man thinks he is".

EclecticShock · 08/05/2012 12:48

Eats, that link you posted really didn't reasonate with me. It sounded like propaganda with no scientific basis.

I don't usually post on this board, so this whole debate has taken me a bit by surprise.

That link was extremely vitriolic and man hating. I can't even describe how I feel after reading it. Disgusted probably sums it up.

hathorisverytired · 08/05/2012 12:48

I'm just pointing out that I have an experience that could lead me to wish lesbians to be excluded from any shared female space.

Why are my views not valid?

Nyac · 08/05/2012 12:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

EclecticShock · 08/05/2012 12:50

It reminds me of fascist propaganda, that's the only way to put it.

hathorisverytired · 08/05/2012 12:51

The notion of lesbianism has traumatised me. Lesbians should not be allowed to elbow their way into any shared female space. They should be segregated. You have to toe the line on here and be inclusive of all lesbians and if you're not you get shouted down and have posts deleted.

Lesbians are dangerous and should be excluded and put out of any shared space.

SeaHouses · 08/05/2012 12:52

You have had it explained. The word female doesn't say anything at all about sexual orientation, so somebody's sexuality is not relevant in the context of that definition.

How oppressed somebody is and is not in itself a reason for including or excluding them in every possible space imaginable. If men want to have some men's only spaces, they are legally entitled to them. Generally, you don't have to prove yourself more oppressed to be allowed a space for your identity group only.

Nyac · 08/05/2012 12:52

I agree - fascists had no logic or rational basis for their beliefs, just very strong feelings. It's a lot like the arguments on behalf of trans.

Either that or I call Godwins.

hathorisverytired · 08/05/2012 12:52

So why is my extreme view any less valid - is it just because it's towards lesbians rather than transgendered people?

hathorisverytired · 08/05/2012 12:53

But the sexuality is relevant because they are elbowing into shared spaces where my poor children are and they would be upset as would I to be sharing a space with a lesbian.

Nyac · 08/05/2012 12:53

Hathor, your arguments about lesbians are based in prejudice.

The arguments about trans are based in biological reality that it's not possible for a man to become a woman.

Nyac · 08/05/2012 12:54

Although nice to see hideous lesbophobia plastered all over the FWR section.

SeaHouses · 08/05/2012 12:54

Your views are less valid because you refuse to make a distinction between what we are talking about - sex, gender and gender identity and what you are talking about - sexual orientation.

hathorisverytired · 08/05/2012 12:56

And your arguments about trans ARE based in prejudice.

Happily for me (and my lesbian, gay and transgendered friends), my lesbian "arguments" are only made up to make my point.

Prejudice is prejudice however you dress it up and it is always wrong.

Bennifer · 08/05/2012 12:57

"The institution of transgender oppresses women, by destroying our reality and denying our physical existence"

Only just a minute ago you were arguing that intersex doesn't deny the existence of women - but transgender does?

Nyac · 08/05/2012 12:58

It's not prejudice to say that men can't become women. Nor is it prejudice to say that men have historically oppressed women and still do.

Would you accept a white person with a white ethnic background if they claimed to be black, and claimed that black people were oppressing him because they didn't accept his blackness?

SeaHouses · 08/05/2012 12:58

But what point are you making? That sexual orientation is the same thing as either sex, gender, or gender identity? That is pretty offensive to lesbians and transgender people.

hathorisverytired · 08/05/2012 12:58

Oh and I love the notion that my views are less valid.

Nice equality there. And freedom of speech.

hathorisverytired · 08/05/2012 12:59

The point I am making is that any stance can be dressed up and put forward as reasonable with a load of inflammatory language - but prejudice is still prejudice and is still wrong.

No matter who it's directed towards.

Nyac · 08/05/2012 12:59

Bennifer, intersex is a real physical condition. Why are you confusing it with trans which is a belief and a feeling?

SeaHouses · 08/05/2012 12:59

Bennifer, I don't think intersex as it is usually defined denies the existence of women. But your personal definition of intersex denies the existence of males, females and intersex people. Quite who you think that is in the interests of I do not know.

EclecticShock · 08/05/2012 13:00

NYAC, you have an answer for everything don't you.

SeaHouses · 08/05/2012 13:01

Any stance can be dressed up as prejudiced if people use inflammatory language and irrational arguments.

Whether or not the stance is prejudiced or not is another matter.

Bennifer · 08/05/2012 13:03

Seahouses - that's not the case, you might want to read what I wrote.

Nyac - who are you to say that a "feeling", i.e. something psychological isn't a real condition - is PND not a real condition?