Why "fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin

[Nyac]

article by Julie Bindel in the New Statesman.

www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/08/fun-feminism-women-feminist

Quote:

"We need to bring back the radical edge to feminism, and do away with any notion that slutwalking, lap dancing, sex working or Burkha-wearing is liberation for women. If men like a particular brand of feminism, it means it is not working. "Fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin along with the Lib Dem party."

Agree with Julie, that it's extremely irritating to see a bunch of interlopers attempting to elbow their way in and co-opt feminism, redefining it to suit patriarchy's needs. I've even seen people who support patriarchal institutions like marriage, BDSM or the sex industry calling themselves radical feminists. There is so much misunderstanding and misinformation about feminism out there that people feel like they can grab what they like without making an actual political commitment or any kind of challenge to the patriarchy.

Really liberal feminism (the old kind, not the sex industry supporting kind) and radical feminism are the only kinds of feminism that have ever effected any kind of positive change for women. They need to be reclaimed and supported, not erased by third wave non-feminist feminism.

She's right about the lib dems too. :D Or maybe they are in the same boat and need some classic liberals to reclaim their party from the Tory party's whipping boys.

"Without extremism, there will be no change because people demanding things in moderate forms will be ignored."

Do you really believe that? What about brevik? Or Osama?

No, I don't think that you are owned. I think that the structure you have placed on your relationship (and my own, I am married too) is of benefit to the patriarchy and not for equality for women.

Agree, don't agree. That's discussion and debate

What about the Suffragettes?

What about the suffragettes? How much attention would they have garnered if they were going around politely knocking on peoples doors and handing out leaflets.
It took loud protesting, force feeding and suicide to make sure the cries for sufferage were heard.

I have never heard the term 'fun feminism' before reading this article, so I think it is a journalistic shorthand. I think JB is actually damaging her own cause by effectively referring to poledancing, prostitution and wearing a niqab as 'fun'. The article sounds as though she's accidentally/deliberately buying into other people's conception of radical feminism as radically opposed to 'fun' rather than radically opposed to women's oppression. She castigates another woman for daring to tell a joke in public - how dare she waste a single moment when she could be making a serious point? Why is that criticism feminist? Are men being weak 'fun patriarchs' when they take up public space with their own jokes and discourse? IMO no, they are filling up the space they have as men. For women to take up space in the same way is, IMO, progress. Is progress a dirty word in JB's world?

I also object to slutwalking being categorised in the same group as poledancing, since the point of slutwalking IMO was to say that sexual display can be something women want to do and that they should not be punished for it; poledancing is about women selling their sexual display. I think they are different and I object to them being lumped in together.

"The problem is we haven't yet defined an authentic sexuality of our own. We were so long repressed, now we are in the middle of faux liberation. And we're as boxed into that as we were in old role"

You may be but I am not. Freeing people from this kind of situation you discuss is not about making them radical. It's about them understanding that we ate equal to me and anything else is rubbish. You don't have to undermine men in order to be equal to them. That is an ideology based on insecurity and fear.

frida I don't like 'fun feminism' as a term, or the fact that Julie Bindel puts down millions of women in her horrid article..and yet I am grossed out by lap dancing clubs! Crazy, huh?
In response to other posters, I agree that I can't moan about not being represented if I don't post - but do admit, there can be a sneering attitude towards dissenting views quite a lot of the time. Look how many first time posters plead for leniency as evidence!

Extreme views are not the same as violence. I have never seen a feminist of any description advocating violence, let alone carrying it out.

Yes, I often find this section of mumsnet scarier than AIBU.

He suffragettes were extremist in their own sacrifice like a Tibetan monk how burns himself. That's their choice as a method of communication. They were not forcing any beliefs upon people, they were expressing the own beliefs and it worked. No issue with that. The issue is when you tell people they are not feminist because they don't believe in radical feminism or that they aren't helping men and women to be equal because they are not following radical feminism. Its like saying, if you don't believe in Jesus you will go To hell, no matter how you have live your life. It's a form of control.

This kind of article just encourages feminist infighting which plays in to the hands of MRAs.

Thank you for explaining re slutwalks That is what I thought they were and I'm with Joan on being slightly as to why they would be lumped together with shit like pole dancing.

If you wanted to quote the rest of my post you'll see I said it suits some women.

What do you mean undermining g men? I'd love some examples of Rad fems underminingordinary nice men like my husband for example.

Portofino actually I don't think this is quite the same thing.

I someone said 'I am a feminist but don't think women should have rights men have' then they've rather missed the point.

If someone says 'I an a feminist & by the way I do pole fit / take burlesque classes / enjoy BDSM' then I don't think it's necessarily accurate to say 'oh well I know you agree with equality, are against rape etc., but you're not actually a feminist - you're an interloper'. It may be okay to challenge them on their actions and if it's important to you, explaining why you don't think they should do whatever aspect of 'fun feminism' offends you, but that is a world away from calling people 'interlopers'.

The best comparison I can make is between different sects in Christianity (I am very lapsed and an atheist btw, so I have no axe to grind here).

Fun fem comes from a quote from Andrea Dworkin: "I'm a radical feminist, not the fun kind" if people aren't aware. It's a bit of an in joke.

Rather than slagging people off for daring to set some boundaries around feminism and its tenet, let's take a look at the people who have hijacked feminism for their own pro-sex industry, pro-patriarchal agenda. Because anti-woman politics are not what the feminist movement was invented to promote.

Oh I don't think the feminists are fighting among themselves

"I have never seen a feminist of any description advocating violence, let alone carrying it out."

Emily Davison, the suffragette who stepped in front of the horse, advocated and committed violence (although I doubt any of us have seen her in person!)

fem section gets bitty shouty
some huffy flounces
lots of you is rape apologist, what about da menz, antifeminist and [angry faces] but overall it's v interesting. just don't get bogged down in the aggro and Name calling

it got better after mnhq clarified it's a fem topic on mn, and not a fem board. cue a few huffs and flounces

tenets - my "s" key isn't working tonight

It's a difficult one. I look at myself and my 'lifestyle' choices and I can see quite clearly how living in a pratiarchy has informed them.ar?
The problem is because they are familiar they are comfortable and therefore very hard to give up.

"The best comparison I can make is between different sects in Christianity"

Actually you can just compare feminism to any other political movement, all of which have internal disagreements and different factions promoting slightly different positions. No need to lump us in with superstitious people who based their beliefs on faith rather than material reality (feminism bases its arguments and ideology on women's material reality).

frida when I first joined mn, it was for the SN boards. Then I found aibu and yes it was scary to see some of the vitriol but on balance its an even discussion. I participated in a thread last night on the feminist board unwittingly really and yes it's a scary place. No listening or tolerance on that thread just psychological bullying. It was an eye opener. Women on other boards are more supportive and understanding than here. Ironic as this is the feminist board...

What are MRA's?

EclecticShock, you are brill.You have managed to say, in 1 day, what I have been trying to articulate in a week.
Only about 4 or 5 totally agree with each other on here.