Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

I've just read this thread with my jaw on the floor.

Are we all talking about the same thing? A 'little girl' voice is a high voice, right? Ie., a voice that sounds very different from a deep man's voice? And we're saying ... as feminists ... that we think this is somehow bad, or not likely to be true of many women?

Um ... some women do have high voices. I know women who deliberately drop their voices to sound more serious. I know women who have been told to do this, or taught to do this, as a technique for public speaking. I am really, really shocked that the first response to the OP is not: and what is wrong with having a high, breathy voice? We're women: most of us have higher voices than most men. And that's fine!

"A 'little girl' voice is a high voice, right? Ie., a voice that sounds very different from a deep man's voice?"

Nope, a "little girl voice" is not just simply a high voice, it's a voice which is deliberately put on - I can't believe you've never encountered anyone doing that. .

There's a difference between having naturally a high voice and deliberately changing pitch, tone and other features of your speech.

I reckon the OP's DH is probably awesome and gawjus and they all have a crush on him. All of them. There is no other logical explanation for a whole load of women asking him to do ridiculously simple things in a flirty breathy manner surely?

I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy.

What have you been reading?! That is just a silly thing to say. Feminist analysis does not say that women do not bear any responsibility for their actions - the analysis is a bit more complex than that.

I think MN can give the impression that the patriarchy is responsible for all of women's actions. May be the posters mean the patriarchy explains the actions, rather than takes away the woman's responsibility but that's not always obvious to me.

JosephineB posted the following link on the 'heterosexual relationships' thread. Great piece of writing and I feel it has quite a lot of relevance here. It may help to explain why some feminists are leery of criticising the behaviour of women we have never met.

And it is not because we think they don't bear any responsibility for their actions.

www.shakesville.com/2009/08/terrible-bargain-we-have-regretfully.html

I agree that it is something that occasionally confuses me about how arguments and discussion points are made on this site, WasabiTillyMinto.

For example, I know many women who use a particular voice when asking a man to do something that they see either as a man's area of expertise, or something they don't want to do and feel that by making an appeasing signal to his masculine identity or his intelligence will mean that he does it for them.
It doesn't work for gender neutral or perceived female tasks, but any area that 'little women' are supposed to not be good at can be manipulated. Tech stuff, cars, strength, complicated spatial stuff.
That's not a criticism, it is a very small first hand observation of social dynamics. Yes, I am certain that it probably developed as a consequence of living in a patriarchy and within our gender roles.
Yet some posters on this thread are fortunate enough to have never ever seen this particular form of manipulation i action, and so deny the possibility of it occurring to the point of calling others liars or deluded.

I'd say the majority of women I come across are actively, though mostly unconsciously, trying not to be seen as "too" intelligent. With men I find the opposite. I guess it is the way they have been socialised but it dismays me greatly and shows that there is a long way to go yet!

"one or two women have "girly, breathless" voices

OP's H is implying there is a whole raft of 'em at his workplace"

Could be an outbreak of laryngitis That could do it.

I croak like some sort of warped bullfrog with laryngitis, then all is silence for a week, so that doesn't engender anything but irritation when I'm trying to communicate.
I didn't think numbers were mentioned, just that he was surprised that 'with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things.'

Not that he was seeing them as helpless and entranced by his sheer maleness, but that he didn't understand why they were asking him to do something that they were perfectly competent to undertake themselves, and in a different voice to their usual one.

I think someone already pointed out the corresponding response of women who cook, clean and manage a home because 'he doesn't understand how to use the washing machine or hoover or how to cook'

the thing is that the change in voice, if it is real, may not be playing the 'little woman' card or flirting to get things done for you. it may be that these women have been socialised in a way that means they don't feel assertive about asking for time and help from people so regress into a slightly childlike deference when forced to do so. their being female would mean that childlike regression would be 'girly' rather than 'boyish' and then you have the values placed on girliness by the beholder that interprets that behaviour as sexual or flirty because they're trained to think that girliness is sexiness (which is disturbing in itself actually!).

what he may be witnessing is lack of confidence in asking for someone's time and help rather than manipulative coquettishness as seems to be implied by him. if he then gets irritable about the way they are asking that is going to make them feel even more anxious about needing his time and therefore they may regress further so could well be a vicious circle there.

if i was him i would make clear repeatedly that it was fine to ask him for help and he didn't mind teaching them how to do it at all. he may find they approach him differently when they're not worried about being irritating or met with gruffness.

i do think it's worth reflecting on the fact that 'boyishness' if it was a man regressing would not be viewed with the same contempt, or auto-perceived as being sexual in some way, as girlishness.

I tend to lurk rather than post on the Feminism board and, I'm afraid this thread is one example of why I tend not to post much.

I think the OP is genuinely trying to explore the subject, as have some of the posts on here, like swallowedAfly's very eloquent post above.

It's a real shame that the OP has been scared away.

i can't remember what it was someone linked me to do the other day that was explaining some female behaviour as akin to a dog showing submission by rolling on it's back so it is no threat whatsoever and displays that when having to encounter other dogs who have more power. it was a blog talking about how a woman's way of rolling on her tummy was performing femininity. it would fit rather well with this discussion i think.

being forced into demanding attention and help from a man when you're meant to be non demanding and non-assertive is maybe like meeting a bigger dog so they roll on their tummy with a bit of femininity performance to avoid being punished for being too assertive and direct.

just to add i was shit at this when i worked - it was totally counter to my principles and i didn't do it BUT i was punished for that so i can understand that pragmatically a woman may go along with behaviours that avoid her having hassle and difficulty at work. i recall a female friend who made a point of making sure she went to her boss at least once a week to ask his help with something she was perfectly capable of doing herself because she had realised in her career that this was a vital behaviour if you didn't want your boss to start getting antagonistic towards you. i can well believe her that this was a beneficial behaviour for her career but i know given my personality and reaction to the conditioning we have all had i would never have been able to do it.

(and i'd say that her behaviour inflicted a glass ceiling onto her career as it would only take her so far - she'd never get a truly senior role behaving like that but it did let her get promotions and pay rises etc by being non threatening)

I am failing to see what this group of women are actually doing that is so heinous and contemptuous. They aren't belittling anyone, ruining their career, raping them, murdering them. They are asking for help. If this is happening regularly to the OPs husband then maybe his attitude is causing it. As saf suggests it maybe because they lack in confidence and the reason for that might lie with your husband, OP and his responses to their requests.

SAF, you are making a lot of sense to me.

woop woop its the sound of the (feminist) police (scaring away other women).

The patriarchy must be trembling....

wasabi i am a feminist - have i scared anyone away or done anything to merit your scathing criticism? you do get that prejudice is when you attribute negative traits to whole groups of people and discrimination when you treat them all as if those traits were true of them all?

if you have something to say to an individual say it but don't just insult and denigrate a whole swathe of women.

Unfortunately the aggressive posts came at the start of the thread so the OP vanished pretty quickly.

I think talking about these women's alleged behaviour is missing the point. The point is that the dh is coming home to his wife and slagging off his female colleagues to her, and also implying that they are being seductive to him. Both highly questionable things to do.

Perhaps those women could be encouraged to move away from their learned dependency and submissive behaviour patterns and enabled to acquire the skills they need to do their job.
If the OP's DH helps them, as he is doing apparently, then they should surely become independent learners and start using their intelligence and skill set without needing a man to constantly do things for them that they are capable of themselves.