Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

I read it to mean that the DH was questionning why his female colleagues were perpetuating these stereotypes rather than slagging them off.

Depends if he finds their actions seductive or annoying.

I think this is relevant to this discussion too.

1. Men not being sexist shouldn't be contingent upon women not being misogynist. They should stop being misogynist just because it's the right thing to do.

2. Men and women are misogynist for different reasons: men to marginalize women, and women to ingratiate themselves with the men trying to marginalize them. Neither one is justifiable, but one is oppressive and the other is a (bad) strategy to deal with that oppression.

3. One thus sees that if the men who are misogynists weren't, the women who are misogynists wouldn't have any reason to be. Ergo, exhorting women to stop being misogynists so that men will stop gets it precisely backwards.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage women not to be self-loathing misogynists. It only means that we probably shouldn't treat them as somehow more responsible for sexism than sexist men. They really and truly aren't our worst enemy?if our worst enemy disappeared tomorrow, we'd never have a problem with sexist women again.

The context of the above post is a bit different to the OP on here. But it is part and parcel of the same thing, the Women As Their Own Worst Enemy trope.

The problem is not these breathy women (if they do really exist in the numbers we are expected to believe they do). If there are lots of women behaving like this in the same workplace then there is probably something going on in that workplace that encourages these women to practice this sort of femininity.

Personally, I think that is where the feminist analysis lies - not in the perceived harm these women (if they exist) do to The Cause.

femnist police does not = feminism

its people who think they get to police what other people think

oh & the OP is not the perfect feminisist, nor am i, nor anyone else on this thread.

not to mention derailing from an interesting topic.

imagine going to a party and standing in the middle of a room and saying some people here are cunts, that's why no one wants to come here because of you cunts.

it's baffling behaviour.

Surely feminism is about challenging the way we think?

We take a situation and come at it from a different perspective, a perspective which tries not to apply status quo (patriarchal) thinking.

Attacking women for behaving in a way that they are socialized to do, and often rewarded by patriarchy for doing, is hardly thinking outside the box.

i think the OP & the DP have been unfairly treated. if they self-identify as wanting greater equality, IMO its bad to critise them to the point the OP leaves the thread.

so his/her view is possibly flawed, they are aiming for equality & that seems to have been completely forgetten.

Beach- Surely feminism is about challenging the way we think?

how do you think the OP feels? like shes going to post her again? how does that help feminism?

we arent perfect feminists, we just need to be good enough.

Really sad to see that this thread unfolded in the way it did and sorry to see that the OP didn't come back. I think it IS a valid issue for discussion on a Feminism Discussion Board like this one. If only the OP though had framed these as her observations, or those of a female friend, colleague or relative, I think things would have gone in a very different, more constructive direction.

We can to and fro about tones of voice, styles of dress, learned helplessness of women and overconfidence of men. I think what is underlying it was suggested in the first handful of posts from Agnes, Josephine, Wasabi and a few others. I'm reminded (yet again!) of Andrea Dworkin's Right Wing Women.

She explains clearly why women often behave in ways that seem to collude with rather than challenge patriarchal institutions. "A woman must keep her intelligence small and timid to survive. Or she must hide it altogether or hide it through style . . . She will try to find the nice way to exercise intelligence. But, intelligence is not ladylike . . . Wild intelligence abhors any narrow world, and the world of women must stay narrow, or the woman is an outlaw."

Women sometimes, and I'd suggest all women at some times behave in ways to get ahead or even just get by. It's not necessarily noble, but it's a way of "carving out" what you think can be the best position within an unfair, unjust, patriarchal system. It's just too exhausting to fight every example of misogyny you encounter 24/7 and being an "outlaw" can make you lots of enemies, amongst men and women. Oh, and as Dworkin suggested way back when, sometimes "performing the female gender" can be essential for survival.

So, I don't join the queue to bash women who behave in this way, as much as I believe their approach is ultimately self-defeating and certainly not in the best interests of other women. They are operating within a system where their agency is limited.

However, what would be interesting is to discuss what we can all do to push those boundaries, to support each other in our "outlawdom," and encourage the next generation of young women and girls to be less constrained and conflicted in their actions and choices.

SAF - my issue is the OP considers herself a feminist. she has been critised lots for critising other women....by other women, to the point she let the thread, ages ago.

KRIT - So, I don't join the queue to bash women who behave in this way, as much as I believe their approach is ultimately self-defeating and certainly not in the best interests of other women.

i agree but why is so much of this thread bashing the OP? it does not look like a healthy debate to me.

And, before someone says something . . . I know it's not JUST about the next generation of girls and young women. There's a job of shifting perceptions of young men and boys, and pro-feminist men now have a big job of work doing this. My immediate concern though is what if anything we can all do to cut back the crap that we've all had to deal with so there's less crap for the next cohort of women coming through.

Has anyone seen the 30 Rock episode that touched on this issue?

The main character called that attitude of "can't the big stwong man did it for wittle me" a 'sexy baby', which I thought was quite accurate. Really shines a light on how creepy it is for men to find that 'persona' attractive.

Do you know, i was just reading a thread on the politics board, and there are posters calling each other economic illiterates, and berating and mocking them for their ignorance, amongst other very robust posts

nobody appears to have died, or had an emotional breakdown

i can't think of any posts on this thread (or any others on the fwr boards really) which compare in terms of how robustly arguments are attacked, and yet i have also never seen posters complaining that the mean tory poster hurt their feelings, or the lefty made them feel scared to post, or the lib dem posters were policing other people's opinions and it was preventing real debate

there never seem to be 1000+ post threads about them started regularly

why is this, do people think?

thats a very interesting question: on politics, the fun is in debate with the opposing side.

feminists are supposed to be on the same side. & whether you or i think women should be scared out of the debate is IMO irrelevant - women are scared out of the debate....by other feminists!

In response to chibi - that's a very good point, and something as a male visitor to these boards, I have often wondered.

I think maybe it's because what underpins the whole of this section is the politics of feminism, i.e. the fight for the right to complete equality in society. Men are seen in the form of the male illuminati - an unseen, malevolent force that keep all the goodies for themselves, casting women down as second-class citizens. They do this through economic power, but also through overt bullying and also subtle put-downs. These last two characteristics, however, seem to crop up time and again on discussions like this one. So, in effect, some feminists are displaying the characteristics that feminism is supposed to be fighting. I think this is why people are hurt or frightened away, moreso than a politics or economics board.

Sorry if that is a bit of a ramble. I hope it makes sense to you.

These women (if they exist)????

sniggers
Having sat in a womens' studies seminar with 18 other women and 1 man when we were asked whether we would use our sexuality to advance our careers and only three of us answered 'no', I'm pretty sure the answer is yes they definitely exist.

Seems to be a difficult concept for some people on this thread to get their head around. Women being manipulative to get their own way. I seriously doubt its got anything to do with patriarchy power structures though. I'm pretty sure a lot of women in that class would have run over their own grandmothers if they thought it would advance their career.

And conversely, I've also come across a lot of incredibly lazy women who will use every excuse in the book to do the minimum amount of work possible in their job, whilst everyone else runs around them.

I've also met men that do the same too.

As for reinforcement of gender stereotypes, I think it cuts both ways. There are feminists, deliberating using generalisations and stereotypes to reinforce them, and create division to further their own agenda... and in the process they cause problems themselves. Stereotypes of all forms are the problem. It doesn't matter who is creating them or using them.

So yes, I do very much believe that women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism.

Indeed sometimes labelling something as a 'feminist' problem does exactly this. It can be highly counterproductive. You have to move to a gender neutral stance on certain issues to avoid that.

I find that there are some astonishing examples on this thread with regard to creating stereotypes that hinder everyone.

There are a lot of people who don't want to look at things and ask difficult questions and address the own weaknesses of their argument and point of view. A principle of good management is to do exactly this order to get to the bottom of a problem and actually see what the problem REALLY is, not what you initially think it is.

To some people though, being right is more important than understanding the nature of the problem. And this goes for purely blaming the patriarchal system. It won't solve a lot of problems. Its a bit of a cop out. Especially when people blaming the patriarchy are creating and indeed reinforcing some of the same stereotypes (in reverse) in various ways and are blindly unaware of how they are contributing to those very same problems in the process.

Simply sitting on a hill, shouting in a Reverend Ian Paisley voice "No surrender. I will not compromise with those evil bastards" really doesn't resolve issues. Its childish and blinkered. Mainly cos, the masses doesn't actually fall into the extreme ends of the scale and fit the stereotype. They might have elements that do, but most people fit somewhere in the middle, to a greater or lesser extent. Demonising doesn't help anyone.

Nope the people who actually resolve issues are the quiet ones on the ground, not interested in political power, who do things to build bridges in communities and actively try and disprove stereotypes and the need to do things in a certain way. Thus making people able to just get on with things. But thats a slow process and rather more dull. And at times, that does involve the big dirty C word. God bless Colin Parry.

So here we have a situation where the OP DH, instead of pandering to the women's preconceived idea that they can somehow manipulate a situation or get out of doing something, he's trying to teach them, they need to get on with doing the actual job in the same way he would expect from anyone else.

Strangely, I find it perfectly acceptable for him to be allowed to be frustrated with the fact that women are trying and play him. And I find it particularly crap that after he's taken positive steps to try and encourage brains over sexual manipulation, he's STILL being accused and cast as someone who is anti-feminist and trying to destroy the OP's view of feminism in someway or worse still, as some kind of sexist monster who looks at women he works with as sexual teases!!!!

Hypocrisy of the highest order. And bugger all to do with patriarchy. Its blind prejudice.

Don't know, unless it is perhaps the fact that some people feel that being female is part of them and so the attacks about how we are doing feminism wrong feel more personal.
Unlike politics which you can largely ignore, and which you expect to disintegrate into factions and sides and ranting and wild untruths. That's what politicians do, isn't it? Some see MS politics as essential, some see it as irrelevant as a method of effecting true change.
I'm interested in the environment, some of those debates become very nasty. I have a son with additional needs, some of the SN v The Rest become hideous and very personal and people get very angry and distressed. That's our lives you are slicing up.
It's sometimes a bit of a shock to realise that in a feminist debate there are opposing sides and viewpoints held by people who are all female and bashing each other rather than the larger issues. So instead of being a person with a question you are puzzled about, you become the enemy.

But just calling yourself a feminist doesn't make everything you do, or think femjnist! i identify as a feminist, always have, but there are choices i have made that are unfeminist, and are open to feminist criticism - the extent to which i choose to perform femininity in order to make life easier for me is one.

i would never expect that because i identify as feminist, everything i say or do is beyond criticism, or that i could pass off unfeminist stuff i do as feminist simply because it's me doing it

eg i am a feminist, i wear v high heels = wearing v high heels is feminist, and if you critique this you are saying i am not a feminist and will hurt my feelings

i can appreciate that this is possibly how other women see their feminism, but it is anathema to me

feminism is a political movement dedicated to the liberation of women, it is not an uncritical support group for anything a woman might think or do ever

Tilly do you think that, by definition, all feminists should agree with each other on every point ?

That is rather naive