Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

Another thing I caught myself doing, I'd bought a new top which combined with a bra I'd recently bought actually gave me a bit of cleavage which is a change from my usual checked shirts/high buttoned tops/hoodies type clothing and generally not wearing a bra at all, and the first time I wore it I was really conscious of the fact I was adjusting my posture in order to push my boobs out in front of me, doing a weird thing with my arms/hands (basically bending them at the elbow in the sort of position a genteel lady would hold a cup and saucer), giggling a lot and having a coy little smile as my "greeting" face. This was at work too. I have literally no idea why I was doing this, and it made me feel really self conscious when I realised. I did seem to relax more over the course of the day and act as normal, or perhaps I just got used to it? It bothered me though, and it's a shame because I thought the top looked really nice on me. I have worn it since, but generally not at work, just when I was meeting friends etc.

Possibly Sardine. I know with our help desk flirting or playing the dumb girlie is often the only way to get the lazy sods to do anything. My tactic of telling them what is wrong and asking them to fix it flummoxes them because I am female and therefore am not expected to know the intricacies of IT systems. They also don't like it when I tell them what is wrong rather than waiting for them to diagnose the issue often inaccurately If I don't know, I'm not afraid to say so, but boy they waste a lot of time arguing with me when I'm almost always spot on with my diagnosis. . I've given up playing the game with them. These days I lean over the desk and flick off their headphones and make them acknowledge me when I speak to them. Ex teacher tactics

With the men it's often a case of them not wanting to admit in front of a woman they don't know how to work technology. I find it quite funny really. I have a secret file of the worst techno bullshit I've been fed to amuse me and my team (all female)

Totally agree that men and women are just as likely to be inept with technology.

And that they have different ways of dealing with it. It is frustrating the thing that men often won't ask for help as hours can be wasted while they fiddle around with the things trying to get it to do what they want when if they'd asked it would have taken 5 secs.

The "I don't get it full stop you do it" thing I have only ever had from much older women in my first job - they were nearing retirement and were data entry people and had moved from an old fashioned program they had used for years to a more modern package and they just couldn't be arsed and frankly I didn't blame them!

I have met women who put on the "poor woman too dumb for technology" act, I have met women who paraded their cleavage in front of senior staff and twiddling their hair as a means of trying to get ahead, I have met women pandering to all the sexist stereotypes there are.

I wonder in what world people live who claim to never have encountered it, but that this is only men who make it up/misinterpret it/etc.

Women are perfectly capable of being sexist and misogynist, as they are capable of exploiting sexism and misogyny to try and get ahead.

TBF some women do naturally have girly, breathless voices.

If I was nearing retirement I wouldn't bother learning any new IT skills.

I haven't encountered it, maybe that is to do with the industries that I have worked in.

I have met women who liked to wear revealing clothes etc obviously, but I have never had the sense that they were "parading" for specific people, more that they just liked to dress that way and be noticed generally.

SardineQueen - might well be to do with industries.
The occasion I'm thinking of was in a quite sexist setting (think office walls adorned with nudy calendars which were christmas gifts from suppliers, and being shot down by other women for complaining about them), and she definitely did try and shove her tits into senior management's faces at any given opportunity. She didn't do it to the non-senior male staff.

one or two women have "girly, breathless" voices

OP's H is implying there is a whole raft of 'em at his workplace

I don't believe him

Yikes that sounds like an unpleasant workplace.

You get your posts deleted for saying that Anyfucker. Or at least I did.

I still don't believe him either mind you.

It was, SQ, I left.

Withou knowing the dh we can't really tell if it's a problem of his perception or where he works.

What I find difficult is that I just don't have very strong arms. Mainly due to a couple of injuries rather than any feeble lack of attempt.

So I do need to ask for help, and I feel a bit pathetic about that, but what else can I do?

You ask for help - but in an adult way, explaining that you have a specific arm weakness, and exhibiting none of the following:

• simpering
• little girl voice
• breathiness
• cleavage-waving
• eyelash fluttering

I think sometimes when people talk about women "parading" their bodies, they just mean that they're wearing a low-ish cut top or a mini skirt. In most workplaces, either of those items is perfectly OK and hte women aren't "parading" they're just wearing them.

Basil, sometimes it's like you say, sometimes it's not. I've nothing against short skirts and low cut tops themselves, and even wear them myself sometimes. But just because parading is not the universal behaviour of all women who wear short skirts and low cut tops, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The same way that little girl voices are not default behaviour of women, it doesn't mean neccessarily that OP's husband is imagining things. Personally I find the story quite plausible.

Saying that women never behave like that on purpose is as daft as saying that they always do.

Auntie, I'm no good at any of those things, I just feel a bit crappy asking for help when otherwise I look fit and capable. I do tend to just ask someone near by, and if it's suitable I say I've got a bad back.

I would hate for someone to think typical woman because of that, but I suspect that some people will think that

But why do people associate "little girl" voices with lack of competence? Where does that come from?

There's nothing wrong with asking for help, btw, no matter whether it's help with lifting things or help with techie stuff.

Just don't make it out that you need help because you're a woman, but you need help because you can't do it on your own, or just need some training so you can learn to do it on your own. (Talking of which, is anyone here any good at writing macros?)

because when you use a "little girl" voice, it makes you sound like an absolute pillock

I don't think there is any argument with that

I'm small, I ask for help if I can't reach something and a taller colleague is nearby.
It's either that or go and fetch a stepladder and I am a lazy feminist.

I find it pretty hard to believe that there is a workplace (publishing or otherwise) where noticeable numbers of women are refusing to learn basic IT skills that are essential for their role, instead preferring to go and flirt with OPs DH to get him to do it.

I mean presumably they are fairly busy and there comes a point where doing it themselves in 2 ticks would be better than having to cajole someone else into doing it for them
The suggestion being I guess that the women would rather go and flirt with OPs DH than learn how to do something pretty basic themselves
Implication being OPs DH is irresistible, and the women are all a worrying combination of unambitious, dim, lazy and unskilled.

I still think OPs DH is embellishing here somewhat.
Someone asks me to open a zip file for them more than once (twice at a push) and I write the instructions down and email them.

SQ - I've written flow charts with little drawings, and trying hard to be not patronising, for people in the past because I was sick of doing things for them. They still didn't get it or pretended not to.

I've had this taped to my screen once (and I'm not overly techy even, it's quite weird that people tend to think I'm good at that kind of stuff)

Now pretending to be dim in order to Teflon off work is not something only women do. And playing the "I'm just a dim ickle woman" is only one technique, and isn't always employed, but some do do that.

I didn't realise that extracting a zip file takes any sort of skill, but I've also once worked with someone who did his calculations on a calculator before typing them into a spreadsheet, so nothing is impossible.

To those posters who don't believe the OP's husband - why do you think he would lie to his wife? That is a pretty rotten thing for him to do just to 'prove' a minor point (if that is his intent).

I've got a quiet girly voice. I feel I'm letting the side down now. It isn't put on, it automatically comes out that way, all the time, to everyone!
:(

I can open a zip file though.
:)