Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

Lumpy, what is your problem? If there is some other place where 'better' feminists have more engaing and informative debate then PLEASE... Do pop along there.

There isn't really though, but perhaps there are more specialised forums out there where the debates are razor sharp and all combatants are equal. Like an Olympic Squad Feminist Debating Team. Where Real Feminists can talk without having to worry about the small, confused and uncertain.

The problem is when it's just a melee, and you all take your chances once the fray is entered.

Well, I agree with the OP and her husband that women being pathetic in little-girl voices are an embarrassment.

As are men doing the same, but in little-boy voices.

Women do it (and I've seen it too and it's fortunately rare but grim) mostly about technology. Men do it mostly about domestic matters.

They should all learn to behave like adults and ask for help, if required, in an adult-to-adult manner.

Just re-read OK:
"
So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy."

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!!?!

Of course women bear responsibility for their actions. As do men. OP, I suggest you get some reading material written by someone with a functioning brain cell.

I'd certainly be interested in answering/ discussing this: "I think before we address whether or not some women's behaviour appears to 'let the side down' as it were, we need to consider whether your partner's perception of things is not quite right: does he himself have a sexist view of women, even unconsciously? And if not - if his perception is correct - why would women feel the need to behave that way? Is this perhaps a product of a society that has expected women to play a certain role?"

I think some people are very upset at the idea that it is men who are responsbile for patriarchy, misogyny and sexism. They created them, and it is their power systems which uphold them.

So people try to find ways to blame women. Blaming women is as old as the patriarchy. Well maybe it started the day after patriarchy began.

Agnes me too...and I wondered if the OP's ref. to the book she had read above - which Auntie points out is bonkers - is a mis-reading?? Because the point is possibly not that we're all helpless but that if from your mother, and grandmother, and from the media, etc., the paradigm you are constantly presented with and unconsciously modelling is that women have a particular role. So that in following that role you're not just some helpless sheep bleating along to the patriarchy - it's not as simple as that - just that you've been moulded. Or almost moulded at least.

Dunno though.

'Of course women bear responsibility for their actions. As do men. OP, I suggest you get some reading material written by someone with a functioning brain cell.'

I do think that needed to be said, because I sometimes read posts here that I think convey the message

'women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy.'

and I disagree with it.
Looking at the reasons for behaviour and analysing it is looking for an explanation, not an excuse, and that's something I've also found debated and discussed at length on here. It's one of the reasons I keep coming back, despite often being wrong and confused.

Wow they are deleting posts I made that were in no way personal attacks.

Mumsnet, are you going to apply your rules properly, or if it's a free for all there are some covert personal attacks going on here.

Did they tell you exactly what guidelines you broke?

Bother, I saved the thread in 'I'm watching' instead of a word document, so your original comments are lost.

I am a bit confused about the deletions actually

I certainly didn't report nuffink.

I noticed myself doing this a bit at work. If I was selling a heavy item, I'd ask for help from one of the male staff to get it down from the shelf. Then, they'd get it down, hand it to me and I'd notice it wasn't even that heavy

Am trying not to do it now, but the conditioning is strong - I hadn't even realised.

I do have a problem with the fact that some women dumb down in the workplace, and elsewhere

and the way that some men act all helpless with domestic tasks

it is disingenuous and assumes the other person is thick enough to fall for it

it bugs the hell out of this capable, independent woman

the thing is, I would only call what I witness with my own eyes

because joining in to condemn somebody I have never met, and certainly never borne witness to their individual behaviour, seems a bit of a trap to fall into

I am as guilty of generalising as the next person, but it is at least something I try not to do, or point it out to others who may be amenable to having their prejudices challenged

That's really interesting BB - and quite funny

I think I have the conditioning too (well: seems highly likely given I live in the same society) but I react against it - consciously doing 'manly' jobs, insisting on hefting bloody great lumps of furniture despite not being especially strong.

But the sad thing is: I'm doing that in order to react against my perceived expected role, which is just the same as acting within it, IYSWIM . Either response is conditioned.

It'd be nice to think I/you/we could respond as 'us' - ie I am too short for that, regardless of my gender: could someone taller help please, regardless of theirs - but I am not sure I ever do...

there are some trigger-happy delete-button fingers around this weekend

I was deleted last night for fuck-all

Has MNHQ got an excitable newbie on the team?! One of the deletions was someone telling me to 'feel free to go away' - slightly ill-mannered possibly but not in the least offensive.

I am lucky I guess in that I haven't really met many of these women at all.

I have met lots of men and women who ask for my help with computery things.

I suspect that women wouldn't bother adopting a little girly voice with me though so that may be why I haven't noticed it. Either that or it doesn't happen much.

What I have found annoying is that after years of being single and being terribly independent my DH who is terribly helpful always rushes to do anything which is heavy etc that he sees me trying to do. And I usually say fine as I am pretty lazy But of course now I am starting to ask him to do these things, that I perfectly well used to do myself. Just today walking back from town I let him take 2 heavy bags of shopping and I had one lighter one. But then I am little and he is very big, so in a way it makes sense, surely? Don't know.

I am also a bit suspicious of these hordes of helpless women batting their eyelids at OPs DH and wonder whether there may be a certain amount of overactive imagination / exaggeration involved. If these women are all so hopeless then how on earth have they secured jobs?

This is something I encounter a lot at work. I manage a big IT system that causes a subset of my users a lot of anxiety. I've had the 'I can't do it' attitude from women on occasion. It bugs the hell out of me, but interestingly the wimpiness disappears the minute they realise I'm female. Having fought dealt with our IT help desk on several frustrating occasions I can kind of see why they do it. Sometimes the egos need stroking guys there need prompting to get anything done.

I have an absolute rule. I don't do things for people if they are capable of doing them for themselves. I will send instructions, I will produce step by step guides with lots of pictures and I'm not above seeing them individually and walking them through the process. The result of this policy, apart from the amount of time I have spent getting to know my users personally, is a far greater skill set amongst my users has been developed in the past year than my male predecessor managed to get in the three years he was in the post. He, of course, would do the little things and sigh at the weakness of the women

My male users have a different approach. Most of them will never admit to not knowing how to do something. They will insist the system is malfunctioning instead. When I see them personally a large percentage of them will start to talk pseudo technical language at me rather than admit they don't know what is going on.

mumwithdice - my experience (admittedly as a man) is that there are a minority of women in the workplace that behave exactly as your DH describes. There are a minority at the other extreme who try to act like the 'alpha' male in the office.

Mosty women are perfectly competent and get on with the job.

Maybe publishing does attract more than its fair share of 'fluffy' types and I inlude both sexes in that.

I don't think it's antifeminist to discuss the fact that some women, in some circumstances, do themselves (and other women) no favours. Individual women can be stupid, mean, selfish and irresponsible just as men can. And it is possible to overcome cultural conditioning, people do it all the time. If you were brought up in a racist family, for instance, that isn't a free pass to remain a racist all your life.

Oh, messy & slug, you are talking about flirting.

I think?

certainly lots of people of both sexes flirt a bit at work in order to make things happen more easily. That's just something that humans do though isn't it, men do it too.