Really? we think that "that organisation" are representative of fathers in general? really?

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

"They are already telling us that F4J (and by association every dad in the land) are bullying and intimidating them in this latest campaign, a stance that completely ignores the decades of intimidation that has been suffered by fathers at the hands of women?s organistions and which attempts to control the space around the campaign..."

Do they think we are as mad and misguided as them?

Intimidation by women's organisations?

From http://karenwoodall.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/on-the-tyranny-of-the-weak-a-mothers-day-musing/

Who is this handmaden person?

How many women have been fined and jailed for witholding contact from an abuser?

how many have complied and handed over their children for contact through fear of being jailed or having their children taken off of them and the father given full custody? it doesn't take many convictions to make people toe the line.

I think it's only 1 or 2 OLKN who have been sent to prison (don't know about fines), but the point is you can still be held in contempt of court (which does happen even though it might not result in a fine) and therefore subject to a criminal record, whereas repeatedly breaking contact orders if you are a NRP has no such equivalent.

And it doesn't matter how many times you've been abused, if you can't prove it with a police record or medical notes, you are considered to be making it up out of malice. Never mind the fact that 9 out of 10 don't report it and those who do may be subject to more than 35 assaults before they report.

But I'd wholeheartedly agree that the courts need an overhaul. Reports are written about parents without proper meetings with the parents, attention to background evidence from GPs, SWs etc. And the whole thing moves at a snail's pace.

I'd like to see no blanket rules/precedents whatsoever and have each and every case judges on its own individual merits.

I have noticed you never answer my questions. I wonder why.

However, to answer yours, I have no idea and it is probably unanswerable. There should, however, be stats on women fined and jailed via our (public) criminal courts. You raised the idea, can you back it up?

Xpost with sunshine, will read you now.

I have heard of one woman jailed, but she was witholding with no good reason afaik. (And I do understand there may have been unreported DV, I used to work with WA)

tbh i'm trying to avoid saying what i really think because you kicked off last time i did.

but frankly i don't see how waiting a year without getting to court and not wanting to go to court because you won't like the outcome of being made to organise regular contact times because you want it on your terms fitting around your changing shift patterns is anything to do with a system failing you or you being hard done by or any innate sexism in a legal system you haven't even used.

i know you won't like that opinion so i have avoided giving it.

and your description of him raging and you worrying he'd commit suicide didn't give me much confidence of his parenting either i'm afraid.

You really haven't read anything I posted, have you? And you're still not answering my questions, any of them.

Oh well.

Btw, I've been googling for women jailed for withholding contact, and can't find even the one I thought I'd read of. Where is your evidence, please?

evidence of?

i talked about criminalisation and fear of prosecution/prison/fines - never made any claims about numbers.

the simple fact is if someone took my child and buggered me around over seeing him there is no way on earth that situation would be unresolved a year later - regardless of game play, small gestures of short lived improvement etc. i would have been in court within a month, whatever it took.

the trouble with leaving it and leaving it is that you appear not that bothered.

You said, "women certainly need to stop being criminalised". This suggests that women are currently "criminalised" ie dealt with via the criminal justice system. There should, therefore, be public records, and statistics available. Since you made the statement, you need to back it up. Where can I find the number of women fined or jailed in the UK for withholding contact?

Aha! It's only a proposal, that'll be why you can't give stats. (Sorry it's a Mail link.)

The CSA web site amongst others talks about orders, injunctions, contempt of court proceedings and the risk of imprisonment in extreme cases. Figures will be collected centrally by government agencies but I do not believe they are in currently in the public domain. I do know that the literature I was sent about my ExH's pursuit of the world's most pointless contact order did mention threat of imprisonment. Of couse it could never have happened - he couldn't look after the DCs more than two days a month (his words) let alone full-time so it was either 'good old me' doing all the parenting or the DCs going into care.

Only caught end of this thread but I was advised by solicitor to let ds see df as if it went to court it would not look good as I withholding contact as the df only tuned up twice a year. It wasn't fair on ds as ds needed consistency and df would often not turn up and I was left with 2-3 days of meltdowns:(

So I allowed the contact as df promised to see ds....df stopped after 3 regular contacts ds age 5yrs saying didn't want to see ds for foreseeable future. I later dicover I let my ds into the hands of an evil monster who was physically violent to a defenceless non verbal autistic child, whom must have been terrified and unable to tell his mummy for 3 years who finally had enough language to say last year 'mummy why did you make me go their?'
I will never get over it my heart is torn to shreds and the evil bastard got away with it as SS/CPU thought I was a vengeful ex after payback:(

I pray to God that Kama paybacks this evil man in the next life as allowed to walk free from the sins on his hands. The system is so screwed up it is appalling.

LineRunner, are those penalties for non-paying NRPs, or contact-withholding RPs? Thought the two issues are supposed to be separate, why does the CSA website mention it?

Not doubting your experience at all, btw.

I'm sorry to hear of your son's experience, seaofyou, that must be horrific. How is your son now?

That proposal doesn't introduce prison as a new idea, just dicks about with it.

And it still doesn't stop men only offering themselves up for parenting when it feels convenient.

And the threat of imprisonment therefore stays the silly, impractical, unworkable nonsense it always was.

There is a section on the CSA website about contact. There is a lot of stuff on other websites about parents' rights.

So, if the system needs overhauled, and we mostly agree that it does, what would be the ideal way to handle things in the future? I'd definitely go for fining/jailing/seizing assets of men who don't pay what they should, but don't think it would be in a child's best interests to force a reluctant parent to see his/her child. What do we do about RPs who withhold contact for no good reason; if s/he alleges DV, what kind of proof should we require?

Sadly OLKN I thought ds had forgotten as not mentioned it since CPU decided I was delusional 7 months ago and not interview ds. But as soon as ds saw normal/nice dads with their ds's in the park the memories came flooding back month ago.
I should report these disclosures (but they are the same ones SS know and did not act on) so what is the point....I'll be accused of being delusional....hmm just like I was delusional when 3 witnesses on few occasions saw him in car parked/driving past my street!

Oh, that's awful! Would there be any sort of counselling or support for him, maybe Barnardos?

The CCTV stopped my ex attacks, he was outside my house 48 hours after CCTV fitted, sadly he spotted it and went on his way. Ex has driven past and heald abuse, but when I had the fake petrol bomb initially police said it was kids and threw it away and I pleaded with them to finger print it.. Ex was due in court for maintnanence that week.

I got a PI in end to track ex in work and serve court papers for Maine enhance that weekend he parked outside my house and drove past several times to frighten me. It worked I was terrified again.
Anyone know any good CCTV companies that can get clear picture I have of ex in car so at least I know have proof to get an injunction or something to stop this complete fruitcake?

I asked Paed who said ds would need specialist psychologist because of ASD and CAHMS didn't have anyone NSPCC and WA had nothing either. I was told ds will forget in time....but I feel we have been sucked back to 12 months ago when ds first disclosed

just to say that i believe you seaofyou and i'm so sorry you and your ds were put through that.