Really? we think that "that organisation" are representative of fathers in general? really?

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

"They are already telling us that F4J (and by association every dad in the land) are bullying and intimidating them in this latest campaign, a stance that completely ignores the decades of intimidation that has been suffered by fathers at the hands of women?s organistions and which attempts to control the space around the campaign..."

Do they think we are as mad and misguided as them?

Intimidation by women's organisations?

From http://karenwoodall.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/on-the-tyranny-of-the-weak-a-mothers-day-musing/

Who is this handmaden person?

Basil, I do agree.

My 'status quo' was working full-time, just as ExH worked full-time. On break-up though, there was a definite assumption by all involved that he needn't do any actual parenting. It was sickening how I got shat on.

OldLady, by status quo, I mean status quo for the couple - ie if it's 50 50, there should be 50 50 afterwards and if it's 90 10, it should be 90 10 afterwards - this is so that the child experiences stability in the midst of change.

I would agree with that, but simply think that a start point of 50/50 is appropriate. Whereas atm, the staus quo start point is an assumption that the mother "gets" the dc most of the time, and the father often only one night a week, every other weekend and half the holidays.

The government plans that adult children should live with their parents.

Perhaps all the fathers could step up then? And have their 18-25s living with them full-time. here

OLKN I see where you're coming from and I desire the same end result, but I don't think changing to 50/50 at separation is the answer. I think it will simply use children as tools in an attempt at social engineering.

If we really want fathers to play an active role and get rid of the assumption that mum is always primary carer then we need to do that before anybody separates.

Most children are brought up in families. If we have families where parenting is more equally divided, that will do more to change the status quo than resetting the gender balance among single parents. All that will do is simply uproot children from the person they are most dependent on at the time they need it most, which isn't fair on the children.

I think we already have families where childcare is more evenly shared than, say, 50 years ago. But how does it encourage men to get more involved when they know that in the event of a split (what's the % of marriages that end in divorce these days? Then there are couples who never married, I believe their breakup rate is even higher) they'll have their contact reduced to the point when they have little option than to "disney dad"?

No Oldlady, that's simply not correct.

For a man to get 50 50 care and control, he only needs to show he did 30% of the work - to paraphrase Dr.Johnson, the fact that a dog talks is so remarkable, that he doesn't need to do it well, to show that a man has done any significant parenting at all, is so remarkable, that he doesn't need to have done even a third of it, to have the court, himself, society and even for chrissakes, his wife, to imagine that he's doing 50 50 and to be awarded that in the event of a split.

It's just not true to say htat courts award c&c on the basis of sex. they award on the basis of how much day to day involvement in the actual logistics of parenting, that each parent has done and along with everyone else, they give more credit to men for doing any parenting duties at all, than they do to women doing it because women doing it isn't noticed. But even so, mostly women get c&c, because mostly, even now, even courts recognise that it's women who are doing that drudge work, while the men get the kudos of reading the bedtime story and they get to call that parenting.

The best way for a man to ensure he gets 50 50 c&c, is to ensure that he does at least 40% of the parenting. That will be seen as the majority.

OLKN, Basil is right - where that is what the father wants and says he wants.

My ExH walked away from all his parenting responsibilites, after he left, and nothing could persuade him to see his own children more than one night a fortnight (now reduced by his own choice to one night a month).

I suspect a lot of men, like my ExH, bullshit their own families and partners about the amount of parenting they actually asked to do and arranged to do prior to, and at the time of, and post the split. I am fairly sure he tells his work colleagues that he has been denied access, hence the pathetic contact order that he obtained yet ignores.

LineRunner, I know your ex is a nasty one. But my DS genuinely does want 50/50, and he genuinely did do 50/50 when they were together even though he was also working, because she would go out visiting friends/family/to the bingo/on the piss and leave him with the child. He was happy to do this because getting out of the house made her happy; they became parents as teenagers and are still very young.

I'm not saying that every dad is as hands-on, I know they're not and I know the stats for dads who don't see their dc and who don't pay for them either.

If a dad was only doing 10% of the childcare before the split, fair enough that he only gets 10% after (though if the reason for that was that he was working all hours to put a roof over their heads etc, I do think he should get some "credit" for that) but it's a big difference for the dc too, if post-split they only see daddy every other Saturday instead of every day at bed/breakfast time and every weekend.

I simply think that courts should start at 50/50 and adjust as appropriate for each family, rather than an apparent blanket policy.

Thanks to feminism, more young dads are taking more responsibility. It would be a shame to kick them in the teeth because of the actions of their fathers.

I don't understand, OLKN, If the mother relied on him (your son) for 50% parenting when they were together, how on earth is she managing now they are apart?

I know you can't answer that because you aren't her; it's just rhetorical, really.

Anyway, I wish us all the best of luck trying to find a way through it all.

She moved back onto the council scheme where her large, extended family still live; she has three siblings and upmteen cousins. When they lived together it was in a village a five minute busride away; her mother told her this made her an outcast (even though her mother helped choose it.) She does not work and never has, so does not need childcare for that. And if she really needs a night out, DS is expected to drop everything (including shifts at work) and take his ds. If he cannot (too many dropped shifts and he'll be out on his ear) then the oft-repeated words, "You'll never see him again" are uttered, contact is witheld for a few days/weeks, and the whole shebang starts again... I know many dads walk away, but my ds is genuinely distraught when she buggers about like this, it breaks my heart to see it.

And yes, best of luck to all of us.

And, of course, there's the double kick in the teeth that the more she witholds contact, the less claim he has to 50/50. Can't win.

Again, there is no "blanket policy". There is an attempt to maintain the stability and continuity of care, that was in place prior to the break-up.

By the time these cases get to court, there is no stability or continuity of care.

So there's a court contact order? He can apply for a variation. SOunds like he poorly represented first time round.

Was that to me, LineRunner? My DS's case hasn't got as far as court yet, thank all the good things, but if his ex keeps carrying on the way she has done, there may ultimately be no alternative. At the moment he's at the pleading for regular overnight access and begging her to go to mediation stage.

If it does get to court, he's been told (by his solicitor) that he's likely to get one night in the week, every second weekend. Much of his work is at weekends, so he may have to leave his DS with me and DH. Whereupon she can say, look, he dumps our ds on his parents...

The system has failed you and your DC as it stands. It's also failing my ds and dgs. Something has to change.

well then frankly he's not that fussed is he if he's let it go on this long without taking any action.

if someone kept my child away from me and i was desperate to see them i'd be in court.

the system hasn't failed your ds - he hasn't involved any system - he's just let this happen. you can't blame a system that you haven't even tried.

That's one hell of an assumption, sAf. Do you know anything about going through the system? It is generally advised to avoid court action if it is at all possible, and it takes months, if not years, to get to that point. My ds and his ex only split up a year or so ago, and intially they were able to sort out access arrangements amicably between them. Since then, her attitude has changed, sometimes she's amenable for weeks on end and all is fine, then she throws a hissy fit over something and it's "You'll never see your son again."

"Not fussed"? When you have seen your adult child sobbing and raving, and you spend a weekend terrified he'll suicide, then you can tell me what "not fussed" looks like.

The first time this happened, he went to a lawyer, by the time of the appointment (it took 10 days to get one) his ex had calmed down, so the lawyer advised taking no action. The next time it happened a letter was sent, the ex started co-operating again. The next time it happened another letter was sent, this time she got a lawyer (more delays) and that's the stage we're at now.

Tell you what, next time he has contact I'll tell him that if he's really that bothered he should refuse to hand his ds back, and let her take him to court, shall I? Because that would really be in the best interests of the child, eh?

My god but there's some ignorant stupidity about this place sometimes. Couple that with the attitude I've seen expressed here that only abusive men take their exes to court for access, and I start to understand why some men do just give up and walk away.

my point is you are on here saying how the system has failed your son when he hasn't used the system - the system has had nothing to do with it.

He is using the system. But the system is slooooooow. Do you really think he can just turn up in court one day and demand an order? It simply doesn't work that way.

I hope you never have to find this out for yourself.

no i don't think he can just turn up in court but clearly you can do more in a year than send one letter.

My god but there's some ignorant stupidity about this place sometimes. Couple that with the attitude I've seen expressed here that only abusive men take their exes to court for access, and I start to understand why some men do just give up and walk away.

That was not called for, OLKN.

Are you actually reading what I'm posting?

They started off amicable, no need for lawyers or letters or anything else like that. Being amicable is in the best interests of the child, can you understand that at least? If there is no need to involve a lawyer, it is better not to engage one, because when the letters start flying backs start going up and it all gets awkward.

Even after a lawyer is engaged, you're not in court the next day. The first letter says, please can we go back to the regular routine we had established, failing that can we please go to mediation to come to an agreement like grown-ups? And she responded by going back to the routine, so no need for further action, letters, mediation or court.

Then she got arsey again, so another letter, saying pretty much the same thing, but also mentioning court, was sent. This time she engaged a lawyer (it takes about 10 days to get a first appointment in this area) and responded with a letter. Letters take about a week to arrive after the meeting with the lawyer.

So he saw his lawyer again, and another letter, refuting her lies and again asking to return to the established routine, or for mediation, was sent. He is currently awaiting a reply, and accepting her demand for substantially reduced access, because he has no fucking alternative if he wants to see his son at all. And he very much wants to see his son, to play with him, feed him, bath him, discipline him, you know, just generally play his part in raising him, like any other good parent.

He does not want to have his contact reduced to one overnight a week and every other Saturday as she proposes. He does not want his contact reduced to one night in the week and every other weekend and half the holidays, as a court is likely to order. He wants the three regular nights and days he had when they first broke up. Is this so wrong?

The system is slow and painful and drawn-out. It failed LineRunner, whose situation is almost diametrically opposite to my DS. The system is currently failing my DS, and more importantly his DS, who is kept from his devoted father on a whim, and told lies about why. The system needs an overhaul.