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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

not sure what to title this but it's to do with ejaculation

490 replies

YuleingFanjo · 15/02/2012 10:59

and in particular a man ejaculating on a woman's face. Sorry - I feel awful writing it down.

I was talking to a friend last night, she is much nore sexually adventurous than I am and she was saying that she thought it was part of normal sexual behaviour, that most men found it a turn on and most people she knew thought it was normal.

I argued that it was something that came from porn, was not what I would call normal and there was no equivilant sexual 'thing' for a woman to do to a man. She said that women can 'gush' (I have never done this, maybe I am abnormal) or piss or poo (!) which I pointed out was a totally different thing. But is it?

I was trying to discuss it with her and point out that her sexual encounters are out of the norm, definitely aren't encounters within a loving relationship, and that ejaculating in someones's face is surely more about disrespect than anything else?

or am I wrong. I just find it really horrible and if anyone asked me to let them do so I would show them the door.

Soory - I hope I don't sound like some hairy trucker trying to get off on the whole thing, and I am not asking for personal experiences (I would prefer not to read them thanks) but more to discuss if I am right about the power/porn/disrespect thing...

OP posts:
AKissIsNotAContract · 15/02/2012 22:00

I'm a squirter and frequently do so on DP's face. There is plenty of porn showing women squirting on men's faces, usually called reverse bukkake.

WidowWadman · 15/02/2012 22:03

"I accept it's probably not so simple if you've not discussed sex/fantasy/acceptability much in a relationship (eg. in the early stages) or if you're unsure how you feel yourself."

Hang on - that's all I'm saying. Sex/fantasy/acceptability should be open for discussion. Not being able to even imagine discussing it at all to me seems sad.

Beachcomber · 16/02/2012 11:45

If a man asked me to come on my face as a fantasy, I would be able to discuss it with him.

What sort of man he was would be the deciding factor in how the discussion went.

If I thought he was worth it we would have discussion about how this practice originates in porn. Porn is misogynistic. I am a woman - I do not want to put up with misogyny. So no thanks mate - and here is a copy of Gail Dines 'Pornland'.

Get back to me when you have read it.

Malificence · 16/02/2012 12:38

I asked DH what he thought about it, he can't see the point of it and certainly doesn't find it a turn on, but then he's not a user of porn, I suspect that's a relevant factor. To him it would spoil sex, the man has to stop whatever is happening and basically finish himself off by hand then aim at the woman's face, the thought of that does nothing for either of us, it seems very detached as a way of ending sex.

I would never say that a couple were wrong to enjoy it though , I've been told on this very board, more than once, that liking spanking /rough sex are wrong and "worrying" not to mention that there was something bad about my DH , which was nice, obviously.
I don't think that anyone should do things that they don't enjoy, sexually speaking, even if its something that their partner loves - that's the way to resentment, imo unless something is mutually enjoyable, it's not worth doing.

MyNameIsNotSusan · 16/02/2012 12:44

Its a classic porn 'cum shot', yes, and I hate porn, mainly because of shots like this - all from a male perspective and dull for women.

But I think a lot of the thrill of sexual acts like this comes not necessarily from degrading or subjugating a woman, but from doing something 'forbidden'. Well, for most of the decent men I have been out with.

And surely 6anything is OK between consenting adults, as long as each person feels OK wit it and especially^ that the woman feels comfortable and in control.

Beachcomber · 16/02/2012 13:16

Mmmm, I think the whole 'consenting adults' concept is hugely problematic. Or at least it is from a feminist point of view.

Our sexuality is socialized. What we find a turn on is socialized. What we will consent to is socialized.

And what it is socialized by - patriarchy.

And what is patriarchy - it is a system of male supremacy and female oppression.

I think a lot of sexual practices reflect that.

Our view of our own sexuality as women, is constructed by patriarchy - our sexual boundaries and sense of bodily integrity are defined by patriarchal paradigms.

I think 'consenting adults' is used to sweep a lot of misogyny, sexual exploitation, violence against women and abuse, out of our line of vision.

Its the oldest misogyny trick in the book, 'she was asking for it guv'.

MyNameIsNotSusan · 16/02/2012 13:22

I agree, Beachcomber. And I am not trying to sweep misogyny under the carpet.

But sexuality is so complex. You can't undo what someone finds a turn-on by telling a man he is a misognynist or a woman that she has been brainwashed by the patriarchy.

WidowWadman · 16/02/2012 13:23

So you're claiming that a woman can't find things to be a turn just because she finds them a turn-on? So a woman, if not conditioned by the patriarchy would only go for vanilla sex, if she'd go for it at all? Seriously?

Hmm
MyNameIsNotSusan · 16/02/2012 13:26

I dont understand, Widow. Are you asking me?

Beachcomber · 16/02/2012 13:46

I agree it is complex MyNameIsNotSusan.

I hope you didn't think I was implying that you were trying to sweep misogyny under the carpet! Didn't mean that in a personal way at all - was talking about society in general.

WidowWoman I don't think any of us know what sexuality would be like under a different social order to patriarchy. I would quite like to find out though.

WidowWadman · 16/02/2012 13:47

My question was directed at beachcomber. I think if consent is obtained by coercion/abuse/intimidation/exploitation, that's not real consent.

I think however it is possible that both men and women can equally enjoy, and therefore consent out of their own liking of a certain practice. Even if it's one which I wouldn't choose for myself.

WidowWadman · 16/02/2012 13:47

Argh crossposted

Malificence · 16/02/2012 13:56

I think that without patriarchy, there would still be dominant men and submissive women, as there would still be dominant women and submissive men.

GnocchiGnocchiWhosThere · 16/02/2012 13:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
YuleingFanjo · 16/02/2012 14:01

"I think if consent is obtained by coercion/abuse/intimidation/exploitation, that's not real consent"

Reading what beachcomber says about society and patriarchy makes sense to me. Over time we are conditioned to think things are 'normal' when really we are just being co-erced.

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 16/02/2012 14:11

I think socialization is a form of coercion - one of the strongest and least escapable/hardest to resist forms there is.

I also think female sexuality is co-opted/appropriated by masculine paradigms of sexuality (porn, prostitution, stripping being very obvious examples but this also happens in private situations).

I have no idea what sexuality would be like if we didn't live under patriarchy. Radical feminist thought is that there would be no subs or doms of either sex, as domination and submission are patriarchial (indeed they are patriarchy).

Beachcomber · 16/02/2012 14:20

I think however it is possible that both men and women can equally enjoy, and therefore consent out of their own liking of a certain practice. Even if it's one which I wouldn't choose for myself.

I don't doubt this too.

I'm more talking about what motivates us to desire/enjoy/consent to/allow/submit to/endure without protest, a practice.

Lots of women leave the BDSM scene after finding it to be a total head fuck and a vector for abusers and misogynists. Lots of these women wish they had not consented to things they allowed to happen at the time. They feel violated and that their consent was not meaningful.

They fell their 'consent' was socialized or the result of trauma.

Beachcomber · 16/02/2012 14:25

feel

sorry am terrible for not previewing.

69postssofar · 16/02/2012 15:02

Neither DH nor I watch porn, but he has on occasion done the deed on my face. TBH I prefer it to land on my face rather than anywhere lower down due to pregnancy risks and we both usually end up laughing at how far it goes!

Sorry if TMI, but just trying to point out that it doesn't have to by synonymous with porn or degradation, its no worse than him coming in your mouth really, but without needing to brush your teeth afterwards. Each to his own.

yellowraincoat · 16/02/2012 15:17

There is an awful lot of judging going on on this thread. Who are you to say one act is disrespectful or not? Surely everything is to do with context?

Just because something was popularised by porn or became more mainstream, does that make it wrong? 10 or so years ago, no-one I know was having anal, now it's really normal. Is that wrong too?

My partner comes on my face. My discharge goes all over his face. I don't see either as a disrespectful act. It's not as if either of us are forcing each other.

100 years ago, people would have been shocked by things that are deemed totally normal these days.

It's just a bit of jizz on a face. Unclutch your pearls. If you don't like it, don't do it, but don't sit in judgement on those of us who like it.

yellowraincoat · 16/02/2012 15:18

And Beachcomber, I'm on the BDSM scene and I have never been treated with anything but respect. Of course there's going to be the odd sleazy guy, but it's the same anywhere. In fact, there are fewer sleazy people on the scene I'd say, by a long shot.

JerichoStarQuilt · 16/02/2012 15:22

That was kinda judgmental too, yellow!

Are you saying if I or someone else even question a sex act, we should shut up - because your belief it's 'surely' just to do with context is more important than anything anyone else has to say?

Obviously not everyone agrees it's 'just' a bit of jizz or 'surely' to do with context - who are you to insist we all accept those opinions as fact?

sonicrainboom · 16/02/2012 15:23

yellowraincoat, it's not about judging women.

A lot of things done by men to women in porn are popular because it's seen as degrading.
Many men who watch porn will normalize and start to want to do things that many women find degrading.
A lot of women feel that they have to do things they find degrading.

This is a problem, and we should be allowed to discuss it.

yellowraincoat · 16/02/2012 15:28

Where did I say that anyone questioning a sex act should shut up? How on earth have you come to that conclusion?

It is to do with context in that many women don't find it degrading. I don't. Some do. That's fine. Don't do it then.

I find it problematic that sonicrainboom thinks that "a lot of" women feel they have to do things they find degrading. Do men also feel they have to do things they find degrading or is it just weak little women who are unable to speak up?

Can I just say again that I never said you couldn't discuss it? I really don't get why you think I said that.

JerichoStarQuilt · 16/02/2012 15:32

I do feel there is actually a huge amount of judging going on. The message I'm getting is - if a woman even wants to discuss feeling that a sex act isn't good for women, the message is she's 'sad' because she's not good enough at letting her partner express his 'fantasy', or she's 'clutching her pearls' (ie., being prudish).

I agree it is wonderful that we have moved on from the Victorians and we no longer think sex is dirty or shameful. But does that have to mean that no-one is allowed to say any more than any sex act might be disrespectful or demeaning to a woman?