I will stop being a feminist when ...

[garlicnutcracker]

Thread prompted by one in AIBU ...

? Women's performance is always evaluated separately from their appearance.
? Women are proportionally represented at all levels in government.
? Half of all CEOs are women, matched equally with men by corporate worth and reward packages.
? Women are proportionally represented at all levels in the judiciary.
? Women carry equal weight in the military and law-enforcement services.
? Half of all wealth is owned by women.
? Women's fertility is not given as an excuse for their disenfrachisement.
? No woman is blamed for her own rape.
? Mainstream pornography does not promote violence against women.
? Mainstream media do not promote the sexualisation of women.
? No woman is expected to tolerate violence against her person.

That'll do for starters.

As a free extra: I will accept that men's rights movements have equal validity when ...

? All of the above.
? Men accept full responsibility, of all kinds, for all of their children, as automatically as women do.

Some more here, some are superficial:

• When fat, ugly women appear on television / in the media in respected positions as much as fat, ugly men
• When women don't receive kitchen / home tools as presents unless they have specifically requested them
• When men are not praised for being 'so good' with their OWN kids and for cleaning up their OWN houses
• When anti-rape posters tell men not to rape, instead of telling women to be afraid and stay afraid
• When 'feminist' isn't used as an insult
• When certain people don't use pseudo-scientific 'male brain' vs 'female brain' crap to justify cultural norms
• When no woman is told by a stranger 'cheer up love, it'll never happen'
• When a woman is not judged for the number of people she sleeps with
• When a woman can walk down the street without being shouted at / cat called
• When a woman's worth is not dictated by her tinyness / size of her breasts / youthful skin
• When women are not judged for (clutches pearls) deciding NOT to have children
• When women are not obliged to change their dress to appease cultural ideas of modesty / religiosity
• When women are not bought and sold
• When women are not killed for the family's 'honour'
• When women are not imprisoned for being raped
• When women do not have their genitals mutilated for cultural reasons

• When childcare is seen as something intrinsic to both mothers and fathers, not just mothers
• When female children are steered towards toys that tell them their self-worth should be based on prettiness and domesticity
• When female foetuses aren't aborted simply because their gender makes them worth less than male foetuses

Your first one made me laugh and nod

Bought, sold, killed, mutilated ... YYY :(

I've just seen a typo on my second comment: I obviously meant NOT steered towards toys... :)

The rest though :(

when women are free

garlic I saw this thread earlier, but as you have linked it for me, I am confused (but I have had a bottle of wine, some pimms and a few GnTs through the course of the day) - whats all this got to do with Families need Fathers and whether its members pay maintenance??

When hell freezes over....

Or when no-one says 'isn't DH good for having DS for you'
When people talk about what parents are going to do WRT jobs/careers/childcare/PT//FT after having DCs, rather than mothers.
When the term 'full time mother' is never uttered.

And when every girl and woman in the world is free to make their own choices in terms of dress, education, beliefs, has access to proper healthcare, including maternal care, has the right to marry whom they like (and divorce them too), work if they want and own property and money in their own name.

Also see 'when hell freezes over'

It still surprises me how much that's changed (the toy thing) since my sibs were small in the 70s. Toy kitchens had pictures of little boys on the packet, as well as little girls, same as toy tool sets and so forth. And what's with all the colour-coding? What if your DCs happen to love orange and green? Am flummoxed.

Mustn't forget that boys do cookery at school now, though. It's a start - not to mention sensible; boys eat, don't they

when no-one says 'isn't DH good for having DS for you' - Do you let people get away with it, Wilson? Does DH?

when fathers don't "babysit" their children

and everything so far

when men don't "help" around the house

when women aren't blamed for finding themselves in shit relationships

You'll be "feminists" for a long time then, as most of those will never happen. Some rightly, some wrongly, and others are written in a totally biased way.

And no, it's women who choose to get pregnant (or neglect contraception) and on top of that, they have the choice to abort or not without reference to the man's opinion.

Therefore, men will never "take responsibility" if they are tricked into fatherhood.

No, I don't and actually neither does he. But people do still say it. Less now that DS is 6 and many, many people have had their heads in their hands to play with...

Also, to be strictly fair - we were at a family party recently and an old-ish aunt said 'oh isn't DH hands on, you're lucky' and I bit my tongue because she probably did mean it in terms of her own experience, IYSWIM? In her day the men would have been at the bar, not leading balloon wars on the dance floor...

censorship would you like to point out whats been written in a biased way?

I agree with the vast majority of those listed, although RE: "Half of all CEOs are women, matched equally with men by corporate worth and reward packages." The packages and worth - yes! But as a feminist I would rather... "All CEO's are chosen based on their efficacy to perform that role"

I only have two, and there based on recent discussion;

*When men/women are granted 50% custody of children when both parents are equally capable.

*When women are expected to pay child support as much as men in appropriate scenarios.

Also when women's sport is as actively supported and remunerated as well as men's sport

When cheer leading and pole dancing are relegated to the history books as a terrible mistake and not encouraged as a 'healthy' activity for girls to partake in

censorship will quite quickly make the people who don't believe that there are those whose very existence is geared towards derailing feminist threads eat their words

cheers, censorship

when porn is acknowledged as a negative force in society

HC, a man's just as capable as a woman of ensuring he doesn't start a baby.

Fair enough about the aged aunt, Wilson. I do still hear a lot of people FAR younger than myself coming out with cobblers along the lines you & AF have mentioned, re men "helping" raise their own family.

That's part of what I mean about full responsibility for children, btw, for devil's advocates above. Women assume, quite rightly, responsibility for all aspects of their children's welfare. This level of responsible assumption is still lacking on the male side. There are exceptions, of course. Feminism tends to be about generalities. It is simply not generally true that men take the full weight of responsibility for kids. Things work better when both sexes take it on.

Actually, WCM, I have no problem with cheerleading or pole dancing in themselves. Wish I were fit enough to do either! I have got a problem with lasciviousness being attached to certain gymnastic activities. (But disapprove of damning an activity for the thoughts of lechers, if that makes sense.)

Yes garlic I agree - if it was seen and practiced as a form of gymnastics and not as an extension of the sex industry

HC, a man's just as capable as a woman of ensuring he doesn't start a baby

Well, if we want to be ridiculous about it. But if a woman says she's dealt with the contraception, then men are entitled to walk away if that was a lie, or her own incompetence regarding contraception caused the pregnancy.

OK. I don't have children. All I know about post-divorce child care is what I've observed. This has been, in the main, that couples who feel equally responsible towards their children tend to figure out a system that works well for their children. I've often observed this being damaged by replacement partners (both sexes) who don't get it. I've also seen quite a few men 'forgetting' about their children. Very rarely have I seen a woman 'forget' hers.

I've also seen men protesting that they have rights to their children. This isn't quite an accurate or constructive view, is it? Surely the rights all belong to the children, and the responsibilities equally to both parents?

I am out of my depth with the topic - afaiac, getting too much into it would be a derailment. It's a feminism side issue, not a basic.

Thanks, WCM :)