In light of MNHQ's recent statement that the feminism section is in fact not a feminism section but a section 'about' feminism, perhaps we need to be warning people about this up front?

[Beachcomber]

I'm of the opinion that it needs to made clear that whilst the title may be 'feminism/women's rights', this section is quite different to other boards that deal with feminism/women's rights.

It isn't fair to mislead - lots of posters expect the section to be a place where feminist views can be freely explored without fear of posters' mental health being questioned, and a zone where misogyny is unwelcome. In reality, pretty much anything goes here and whilst it is, of course, MNHQ's prerogative to run their site as they see fit, some sort of disclaimer about the section seems only fair in order to forewarn posters (especially posters looking for support or exploration of sensitive issues).

Perhaps it would be an idea for there to be a header at the top of the section stating MNHQ's position?

All suggestions welcomed .

I do often think that it is a shame if sexism has just sort of been overlooked in the guidelines.

MN is a brilliant resource to so many. There is so much support and help and information here, it is amazing really.

I do think the feminist section had the potential to be like that and be a place of support and vindication for women.

However it isn't really possible at the moment for it to be that sort of space - hence why I think it is only fair to warn people.

I have hung out in a lot of feminist spaces and this is definitely one that I wouldn't recommend anymore to anyone needing support or help (because of it being a section about feminism as opposed to a feminist section).

I think that is a shame, but I suppose being dedicated to free speech and welcoming all views in every section, means you can't have everything.

Lenin - are you saying you think if you spoke freely on MN, outside FWR but from a feminist perspective, you'd expect to be demeaned, belittled and attacked? Presumably by other women?

Surely if this is the case it's a deeply disturbing issue.

A simple idea might be to have a fem quiche in OTBT for those conversations/discussions where you really don't want distractions. It works for lots of other people/groups.

slhilly- the posters I mean are on here day and night, they would have mod points galore tbh, without necessarily contributing to healthy discussion or advice giving. Me with my meagre 5mod points wouldn't get very far...

I think the pposters that dip in and out, that have relevant but not earth-shattering views would be disadvantaged.

There are no two persistent trolls. There are more than two people who disagree with certain views however

But for support and help we have Relationships. I've never thought of FWR as being a supprt topic.

Fem quiche in OTBT would be a good idea for supplementary fem chat among fem regulars who want to make in jokes and distain alternative voices. But it would be an awful thing for feminism as such. The feminist topic would probably go better, though, if that sort of quiche-ism had an outlet elsewhere.

A section "about feminism" is seen by anti-feminists as an open invitation and opportunity to:

a) oppose the need for equal rights for women and girls
b) oppose the right of feminism to exist
c) oppose the right of feminists, be they liberal or radical, to express their opinions.

This has allowed much trolling and derailing, by short-term misogynistic trolls joining MN to do nothing but that, as well as derailing by anti-feminist long-term MNers.

In contrast, I think a "feminist section" would take, as given:

1. females do not yet have equality with males
2. the need for equal rights for females
3. the right of feminism to exist
4. the right of feminists to express their liberal or radical opinions
5. feminism has been a force for good in society, improving the lives of hundreds of millions of people.

I don't think such a "feminist section" would mean that only certain types of feminist could post on its message threads. This second approach could still accommodate plenty of civilised discussion among both feminists and non-feminists. That is the type of section that appeals to me.

A request to MNHQ : Please would you reconsider your statement that this is a board "about feminism"? Could issue a statement explicitly backing the right of feminism to exist and for that to be taken as a starting point for any discussion on the feminism board?

Do people still say lesbians shouldn't be parents?

Othehuge- quite a few posters have their posts attacked whever they post, mainly because they are seen as a 'poster girl' for some particular niche group. They're not of course, and should be free to speak and discuss wherever, whatever they wish.

They don't all rise above it as graciously as Lenin does though

Rhubarb some of us would like to discuss feminism without our mental health and emotional stability being brought under question constantly.

Some of us would like to explore views that we may not hold or agree with (because they are outside of our comfort zone) but we find interesting and worthy of discussion, without being slagged off and personally attacked (and stalked).

However if attacking the above is considered hunky dory, fine and dandy then either the title of the section needs changing or we need a header.

At the moment I'm thinking of;

"feminism threatens the crap out of people, so expect to be attacked and called names when you discuss it here".

Out of interest, who are the two persistant trolls?

tbh there are no trolls just a couple of whiny atention seekers. Treat them like the overgrown toddlers they are and ignore, ignore, ignore.

BTW I do think that MNHQ should have a policy on misogynism - jokes about rape, refusing to believe that you can be orally raped etc are vile, vile, vile and we should not have to accept it.

Bugger- x-posts there SGM. That really does not refer to you! Such bad timing

I had seen it as being about theory and activism, rather than support, because Relationships seemed to me a very well-functioning supprt area that doesn't need to embrace dissent precisely because it is about support.

The fact that I conceived it as being aobut theory and activism certainly isn't the reason I don't post much in Feminism. I do post there if I see a stimulating discussion. But the area seems just too punchdrunk to have very many of those.

See? It's come full circle. Back to the beginning: the fundamental problem being that people understand it to mean/be intended for different things.

Calatilie we used to get people posting all the time in this section because they wanted help and support from a feminist perspective.

The last time a poster did that, she was attacked and called names. Her thread was derailed and trolled. Par for the course on this 'section about feminism'.

The support threads and sharing of women's issues threads are now few are far between. Bit sad for a feminist discussion board on a predominately female website really.

It does seem the only option is to suck it up, ignore the trolls, brush off the name calling, personal attack, questions over one's sanity and report posts all the day long.

Bit of a joke really. Just not a funny one.

However, be all that as it may - MN is an open forum with no rules about sexism or misogyny and with an high tolerance of trolling and derailing. Hence my suggestion for a header.

Where are these posts? I keep seeing reference to them but if you do a search - all that comes up are feminists quoting this as something that happens

So, that means, if it's said then it's deleted and not left to stand

The majority of the time, the discussion run well, without lots of anti feminist spouting. The problem is seeing trolls where there aren't any. If someone is being deliberately provocative - then report/ignore. If someone is being ignorant, then either put them right or ignore