In light of MNHQ's recent statement that the feminism section is in fact not a feminism section but a section 'about' feminism, perhaps we need to be warning people about this up front?

[Beachcomber]

I'm of the opinion that it needs to made clear that whilst the title may be 'feminism/women's rights', this section is quite different to other boards that deal with feminism/women's rights.

It isn't fair to mislead - lots of posters expect the section to be a place where feminist views can be freely explored without fear of posters' mental health being questioned, and a zone where misogyny is unwelcome. In reality, pretty much anything goes here and whilst it is, of course, MNHQ's prerogative to run their site as they see fit, some sort of disclaimer about the section seems only fair in order to forewarn posters (especially posters looking for support or exploration of sensitive issues).

Perhaps it would be an idea for there to be a header at the top of the section stating MNHQ's position?

All suggestions welcomed .

[TheRhubarb]

xposts

Beachcomber - honesty about what?
This is a public, open forum. Why just warn the ones who want to post about feminism? That is exclusive, don't you see? You want a header in the feminist section to warn about the fact that the section is open to all and may attract trolls. Therefore every single topic should have that warning should it not?

[LeBOF]

I agree, Lenin. I am hiding one right now- I just want a little thing to click to make it official.

[TheRhubarb]

edd - good point. However what the feminist posters are saying is that there are trolls who blame women for rape, who post about teenagers wearing provokative clothes etc. Now there may be real posters who hold these views and that begs the question, should posters (male or female) be banned for holding provokative views? If someone think that gay people should never be allowed to be parents for instance, and they post that on the gay parenting site (as they have done in the past) should they be banned for holding that view? Or should it be debated?

Because those are the views you may well get on open forums.

[ChickensHaveNoEyebrows]

I get why there is a feminist board. Say everyone was ripping the piss out of badly photoshopped images in a 'womens' mag in chat. It would be hilarious, lots of arsing about and 's abounding. But say you wanted to discuss it seriously? Express the way such images make you feel within the context of your own self esteem etc? Well, if you went on to the chat thread to do that you would totally kill the fun and probably piss off a lot of people. So you can come here, and have a serious discussion. This board allows you to explore a different perspective. But you don't have to. You could just stay on chat and link to that really disturbing pic of Terry Wogan's cock. So I actually think it's useful to have a place which is specifically for feminist discussion, although of course the majority of the site does have a feminist ethos.

[MsCellophane]

The feminist topic has eaten it's itself

Yes, you get a few trolls, no more than anywhere else on mumsnet.

The problem has been seeing and shouting troll at anyone who ventures in who isn't a recognised name, has a male name, who isn't radical, who hasn't read up enough, who maybe hasn't completely thought through their posts, who maybe have some feminist thoughts but not always, who only pops on occasionally when a topic catches their attention etc

It's a confusing place, some people come along who feel they are feminist but still have a few rape myths rolling around - they can still believe in basic feminism - isn't feminism a journey through education?

Stop engaging with people who are obvious trolls, report attacks or report if you think someone is a troll. I don't understand why all the 'woe is us' on this section

[Beachcomber]

Gosh I don't seem to be explaining this very well.

I didn't think it would be so hard to understand TBH!

Not sure what to add to make it clearer really.

Did people misunderstand the need for a header in the AIBU section too?

[Blackduck]

Wot Chickens said....

[PacificDogwood]

Just in case MNHQ are reading this thread, here is my tuppence as a serial lurker's worth:

I always assumed the Fem/women's rights section was to discuss such issues, whoever you are, not just for feminists: I am not sure what that is anyway, a feminist; they seem to come in all sorts of colours and sizes... One person's rad fem is another person's extremist; one person's 'common sense' is another person's misogynist. I have certainly been very educated on here. I am very unsure about more moderation and truly don't understand here and on other boards why it seems to hard to just press 'report' and then leave it .

Disclaimer: I have never been on any specific fem sites, so have no idea how things are different elsewhere.

I think it is a general problem with any on-line forum that it is important to always be aware that you have no idea who your opposite poster actually is and how genuine they are. There are lots of other subjects where I find it very upsetting when people post sensitive subjects and reveal a lot about themselves (MH, abuse, bereavement, pregn loss etc etc the list goes on).

[Hullygully]

Hide poster would be the death knell. There would be a small number of people talking exclusively to each other, and not always the same few.

[Hullygully]

Mind you, I haven't seen any of these hideous trolls talked about. Or didn't see them in the same way.

Also, if one is truly secure in one's convictions, who gives a shit? Ignore them.

[nenevomito]

Another vote for hide poster.

Please god of Mumsnet. Hide poster!!!

[AitchTwoOh]

interesting that people think there is less feminism in general across the boards now... i am inclined to agree, i think. but it's like the SN boards folks complain, why should they ahve to educate all the damn time, why can't they just chat about the shit that They Know is going down?

mind you, i'd have no men on MN for preference, so am not the person to ask. and that's not me being anti-men, i LOVE men. i just hear an awful lot from them in daily life, and like hearing a female viewpoint made in a female space. doesn't happen often.

[Beachcomber]

I noticed that too Proles, about the guidelines I mean. I have often wondered if misogyny has just been missed when the guidelines were written.

Maybe we should check with MNHQ?

[OTheHugeRaveningWolef]

Captain - I see what you're saying about demographics but I also think having a separate section perpetuates the idea that feminism is stuffy, embarrassing or irrelevant simply by keeping it out of sight.

Beach - I take your point that being a SN parent isn't a hobby, and that not all separate sections are about leisure activities. But SN Parents is also not necessarily of general interest: it's a niche topic. Important, serious but niche. To me, the point is that feminism isn't - or shouldn't be treated as - a niche topic. It bloody well should be of general interest to women, by definition. Sticking it away in a corner suggests it's a niche interest, which to me runs deeply counter to some of its basic intentions while also providing a whopping great neon sign directing the Masturbatory Radish Aficionados to the place where they have the best chance of upsetting someone.

[TheRhubarb]

Beachcomber - I heard you and addressed what you wanted.

So what do you think then, ban those people who hold genuine views that you find offensive? Where do you draw the line? What makes a troll? Because there are plenty of people around whose opinions I personally find offensive but who are not trolls.

And I think to have a warning above the Feminism Topic should presume a certain level of stupidity on the part of the poster. This is a public forum, all posts are googleable and out there to read, possibly forever. The board gets trolls and those who have completely opposing viewpoints to you. That is common knowledge. No need to have it spelt out imo.

[slhilly]

Hmm.

For me, it is important to have both a feminist section and to have feminist views pervading all of MN. I understand the risks of ghetto-isation, but the board:

• provides an obvious place in which to start some really important threads that would otherwise have no "natural" home, eg the threads about "When did you feel really good about your body", the beauty standard, sharing of experiences of being abused, etc
  
• is a place that people can seek out for good use as well as for the ill use that we are spending an awful lot of time discussing. There must be many people who browse the list of topics listed on the feminism board, looking to dig into a couple of particular interest to them.
  

As I reflect on it, at least a couple of the strongly anti-women posts I've read have actually been quite useful to me as well, despite their capacity to derail:

• they have given me the chance to see what a comprehensive demolition of an anti-women position can look like. I think of threads where Dittany or others have directly confronted an anti-women poster with the weakness of their arguments. They have been very instructive...
  
• they have given me the opportunity to try out what I've learned. I was proud to have taken on threads where people were condoning abuse by blaming the victims, for example. I was confident of my position because it had been honed through introspection while reading others do similar things.
  

CaptainNancy: slashdot tackles the problem of friendship groups by:

• handing out limited moderation points to individuals, not giving everyone unlimited moderation. You earn mod points by reading (mostly) and posting (to a degree).
  
• metamoderation. A subset of moderations are themselves moderated.
  

It's far from perfect, but I think it would work fine here.

Hully: there's always a nugget or two to be found on slashdot. But it's the discussions that I think are best, not the stories.