In light of MNHQ's recent statement that the feminism section is in fact not a feminism section but a section 'about' feminism, perhaps we need to be warning people about this up front?

[Beachcomber]

I'm of the opinion that it needs to made clear that whilst the title may be 'feminism/women's rights', this section is quite different to other boards that deal with feminism/women's rights.

It isn't fair to mislead - lots of posters expect the section to be a place where feminist views can be freely explored without fear of posters' mental health being questioned, and a zone where misogyny is unwelcome. In reality, pretty much anything goes here and whilst it is, of course, MNHQ's prerogative to run their site as they see fit, some sort of disclaimer about the section seems only fair in order to forewarn posters (especially posters looking for support or exploration of sensitive issues).

Perhaps it would be an idea for there to be a header at the top of the section stating MNHQ's position?

All suggestions welcomed .

I hate this. I'm trying to avoid the multiple Poor Ole Feminists threads, but you pulled me into this one, Beach, by having a slightly different angle!

Why not just get on with it? Why do feminists need a Special Protected Space? All you have to do is start a thread inviting informed feminist discourse about some paper that not many people have read, and it'll attract its own participants. Meanwhile, hardline full-time feminists can stay out of threads about hairy legs and MCP drivers, if they wish.

If feminism can't withstand questioning, it's got a problem. I for one don't believe feminism is that feeble. Moreover, we all live in the real world, standing up against sexism (or not) day by day. Do you not think that other people read these threads, quite possibly learning from the arguments advanced by feminists?

The rape thing is a diversion. Jokes about rape, child abuse, etc, are bad form anywhere. This isn't a rape support board. If people want an off-track board for that, then fair enough.

But don't tell me feminism is a delicate topic - and please don't keep painting it as such.

I think vesuvia has made some really good points that it would be great to discuss without the 'you want to sit muttering to yourselves in your exclusive company of muttering zealots' broken record going on in the background.

Beachcomber - I doubt a header at the top of the Fem Section would prevent trolls from spoiling a debate.

I know this is going to sound flippant and I really don't mean it to be, but a troll can only spoil a debate if you allow them to. Yes rape jokes are vile but you have to understand that they post the rape jokes on this topic precisely to rile people into a reaction.

You need to understand how a troll works. They search for topics they think will provide a bit of fun for them. They post the most contraversial thing they can think of and then respond to comments with "you are being sensitive", "you're all defensive", "you obviously have a chip on your shoulder" etc etc. Which provokes more outrage and means they have won their few hours of free entertainment. They then tell their friends about this topic where you can have a huge kick off within minutes, which is why you often get a spate of troll attacks.

If you ignored the post and all clicked on report post, then the troll would realise that their posts were getting him/her nowhere and would be deleted, so they toddle off elsewhere and the message goes around that Mumsnet is no fun because trolls are ignored.

I do honestly understand how upsetting it is. I had two PMs yesterday with implied threats about what would happen if I did not apologise to a troll. He was stalking the AIBU threads and his posts were disturbing. A lot of people told him he was a knob, to eff off, etc but he singled out me probably because I tried to explain to him why people were treating his posts that way. Inadvertently I was engaging with him which is what he wanted. But MNHQ did act on that one.

And fwiw I have been harangued from thread to thread by various posters (not trolls) because I have held an opposing view and they held a grudge. It happens.

So I understand your argument but I fail to see what can be done about it. I don't want feminism to be treated any differently to any other thread and I want people to feel free to post in feminism if they have opposing views - just as they do in the religious threads, because you can get some very good debates going. But you can't have debates without risk. I think self moderation can and will work, but it needs everyone to be on board and agree to the same course of action.

If someone is being deliberately provocative - then report/ignore. If someone is being ignorant, then either put them right or ignore

... And what MsC said.

I didn't view this board as a place for individual support, tbh. I did think it was about intellectual debate.

I think that what has become clearer and clearer is that some posters have a very visceral and personal connection to the topic and therefore feel more strongly and personally any attacks upon them/it.

Others don't have this, so are more able to shrug off the distractions/irritations.

This is how it seems to me, it is not an attack, a criticism etc, simply an observation.

Rhubarb I'm not upset by the trolling.

I'm bored out of my fucking skull by it.

CaptainNancy - if the mod points were given on basis of reading, rather than posting, that would knock the problem on its head. It would give power mostly to the lurkers.

SGM - are we not allowed to name trolls because it might be seen as a personal attack and these are banned? Because I am very happy to name posters, one of whom is on this thread, who have frequently used behaviour that I have perceived as trolling, and I can't see how doing so would be a personal attack.

Consideration and politeness are always to be striven for.

Moi aussi.

It would be interesting to see if that made any difference. Would the intention be that any "anti" posts were deleted?

Who would decide what was and wasn't "anti"?

To elaborate - I'm not upset when someone calls me insane/extreme/emotionally damaged/yada yada because I hold radfem views. I just think the person is ill mannered, ignorant, time wasting and lowering the common denominator, to call me so in a space that is there with the specific purpose of discussing feminist views.

I also think it is as tedious as fuck when they keep on and on and on about it.

Call me picky huh!

picky huh

It is the predictability that makes for my boredom.

Well, if you are bored of all the trolls then what can we suggest? This thread and the other feminist thread I contributed to have so far managed to remain free from trolls.

Perhaps if you could give us links we could read the threads most affected? Because what a lot of posters are saying is that they don't see anymore trolls on this topic than anywhere else, but what you are saying is that the trolling is prevalent?

What might be a good idea is if Mumsnet had at the beginning of the talk section, a para on how the site is self-moderated with a quick guide on how this works.

Oh Beach, you have cut me deep.

Anyway, wouldn't it be great if an acceptable and agreed upon answer could be found amongst the people here? A giant step forward.

Rhubarb, unless you namechange all the time, you hardly ever post on the feminist forum (and when you do it seems to be on threads about how it should be run).

So I'm not surprised that you haven't spotted the trolling and other issues.

I vote for a full explanation of how self moderation works and a smaller reminder about reporting of offensive posts on every thread topic.

With respect, Rhubarb, I think you are wrong. Besides, if you can't see it, then it isn't affecting you, so you can carry on as normal. Most regulars will be aware of the issue, but I think that linking posts etc is playing unto their hands.

Beach - that hurts. Did you not read in my postings of the other thread that I often lurk on here?

But that does not make me a regular poster therefore I should keep my opinions to myself? Thanks.