In light of MNHQ's recent statement that the feminism section is in fact not a feminism section but a section 'about' feminism, perhaps we need to be warning people about this up front?

[Beachcomber]

I'm of the opinion that it needs to made clear that whilst the title may be 'feminism/women's rights', this section is quite different to other boards that deal with feminism/women's rights.

It isn't fair to mislead - lots of posters expect the section to be a place where feminist views can be freely explored without fear of posters' mental health being questioned, and a zone where misogyny is unwelcome. In reality, pretty much anything goes here and whilst it is, of course, MNHQ's prerogative to run their site as they see fit, some sort of disclaimer about the section seems only fair in order to forewarn posters (especially posters looking for support or exploration of sensitive issues).

Perhaps it would be an idea for there to be a header at the top of the section stating MNHQ's position?

All suggestions welcomed .

[Beachcomber]

Again I just want to make it clear that I am not asking for the section to be 'for feminists' - quite the contrary!

Perhaps it would be nice if it was more of a 'for people with a genuine interest in feminism' section, but I think we have agreed that this is an unreasonable demand. No?

This thread is an attempt to move on from that IYSWIM. It is a request for a header, warning that the section is adversarial, bunfighty and welcoming of rape myths and the like, because we are on a section where all views, no matter how feminism-lite or crass, are considered worthy and constructive contributions to 'debate about feminism'.

It is an interesting concept sure enough, but I think one that needs a leetle bit of explanation in order to avoid confusion.

[ThePosieParker]

I'm not sure feminists need any more looking after than anyone else. We're all grown up enough to ignore posters, aren't we? Report...message all others on thread to do the same....maybe?

If you want a safe place to discuss feminist issues, either name change, or join a forum with moderators.

This is Mumsnet, not femnet.....

[ThePosieParker]

It does get dull when deraillers repeated come here looking for attention, scottishmummy, but ignore. And for offensive posts, report.

[AliceWyrld]

I hear ya Beachcomber. Totally agree.

EasternPhoebe - cos we give a shit about other women being misled. It's what feminists do, give a shit about other women. So we can't help ourselves.

[CelestinaWarbeck]

There's a difference between being 'welcoming of rape myths' and - on a board with a reputation for free expression and light moderation - allowing posters to have a discussion about rape myths. I really think it's not true that this section is in any way 'welcoming of rape myths'; I'd say the near-unanimous response to rape myths on here is resoundingly unwelcoming. More accurately you could say 'posts espousing what feminists hold to be 'rape myths' will not be instantly censored'.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

What Alice said.

But also, I'm unhappy about trolls and posters trying to derail and upset women.

But the women on this board (and a lot of the men) are amazing and exciting people to talk to. And lots of posters dip in and out of this section but aren't regulars - I like that.

Interestingly, when we had a thread about separatism a while back, people constantly posted to say how misguided, selfish, or plain sick separatists must be. Yet now, the message seems to be that we should all go talk about feminism in a sealed room lest any delicate flowers on MN can't cope with it.

[AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen]

Wasn't the FWR section set up partly because people were moaning about feminist stuff in other sections?

Kaboom. There goes another ironymeter.

I agree with the disclaimer idea, Beachcomber. I also think that the "tone" of this board would improve if those who claim to be feminists, yet only appear on here to disagree with feminists, would actually post some more positive/supportive posts as a feminist for a bit of balance. Surely there must be one point of view posted by a feminist with which you can agree? If you are a feminist, that is.....

[Beachcomber]

"If you give a shit about how women are treated this is not the place for you"

Or is that too off-putting?

[LeBOF]

I still think that a Hide Poster option would greatly assist people in ignoring the derailers, seeing as it's obvious they are being allowed to remain.

[CalatalieSisters]

LRD, of course if people are 'rude and hostile' ie personal attacks, the kind of posts that are liable to banning then that is wrong. I don't actually think that bieng anti-feminist is of itself rude and hostile. I do think that the Feminist topic is for discussion, and that discussion can not exclude principled disagreement of the most profound sort (although people should be non-boneheaded about the manner in which they pursue profound popposition and not rehash basic opposition to feminism on every thread discussing any aspect of feminism -- in this respect the Feminist board is like the Religious one: atheism is welcomed as a perspective but would be pretty daft as a constant interruption of a thread about, eg, which form of words to use at a baptism).

[Beachcomber]

I see a poster requested a link to MNHQ's statement about the ethos of the feminist section. I am looking for it and will post it if I find it. Please someone else feel free to do so if you are better at searching than me!

[ChristinedePizan]

I don't know what the wording should be but there should be something like at the top of AIBU. And I wish, wish, wish we had the ability to hide individual posters.

[CalatalieSisters]

"Wasn't the FWR section set up partly because people were moaning about feminist stuff in other sections?"

No. I think it was set up for broadly the opposite reason: that discussion of feminism flourished here and so people thought it would be good to encourage it further. Unfortunatley, it hasn't necessarily helped discussion.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

Calatalie - straw man there. I already said mentioned not flouting the guidelines.

Being anti-feminist is by definition hostile to feminism. It may or may not be a legitimate point of view, but the meaning of the prefix is not really up for debate here.

[AliceWyrld]

CalatalieSisters - Yep agree, should be broad discussion. And I agree with your analogy re religion. However if operates differently here. Bringing in an atheist perspective to a discussion of baptism readings would fit right in. That's why there's a need to make this clear.

[giyadas]

is this the statement ?

[giyadas]

That didn't work, it's about half way down the thread.

[ThePosieParker]

Perhaps I should go on to all threads that are titled "Hello my Muslim sisters.." or "Any Muslim sisters out there" and say how awful Islam is for women. Then onto "prayer threads" and say that God doesn't exist. Then onto IVF threads, infertility, gay parenting, adoption and say that if you can't have children naturally you shouldn't have them......

[AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen]

Ok, CalatalieSisters. I wasn't here in the lead up to it being created. So, why do you think it hasn't flourished. Do you think that the posts on here are different to the posts that were made on the same topics prior to the creation of the FWR section?

[Hullygully]

I am old.

When I was young I read Betty Friedan, Dale Spender, Andrea Dworkin, Gloria Steinam, Susan Brownmiller, Germaine Greer, Kate Millet, Marilyn French etc as did my peers. What we didn't have was a commonly agreed set of views that constituted Feminism. We had endless rows, discussions, debates and theories as we each groped towards our own personal understanding and there was, at bottom, the consensus that we needed to change the world (of course).

The bit I don't get now, is what exactly IS a Feminist according to the understanding of this board? There seems to be a consensus about this, a lot of agreement about what is and isn't an acceptable viewpoint, but I am at a loss as to what it is, and why this is.

Could someone explain?

[CalatalieSisters]

Yy Alice, I agree that there is a problem with the nature of the anti-feminist voice. It has a component that is profoundly destructive, threatened by the very existence of feminist discussion. And it fucks up feminist (or even just female) discussion across the internet. So it is massively important that Mumsnet, one of the few female spaces online, finds a way through this problem.

[AliceWyrld]

If you mean this one (below) gidyas, then no (good hunting though). It's about it being 'about' feminism. That's what people who have characteristics some would suggest are troll-like keep repeating.

"Hello. For those who haven't yet seen our earlier post on this thread, it might be worth repeating the last few pars here:

While we understand how irritating it can be to see people posting in ways that you believe to be designed to inflame, we would appreciate it if you would all stick to our Talk Guidelines and report these posters to us, rather than calling them a troll on the boards or personally attacking them.

We do warn/ban posters for making posts we believe to be inflammatory but it is more difficult to follow this through when regular posters are breaking our Guidelines by attacking them in return.

Above all, we'd urge you to remember the age-old adage not to "feed the troll". An audience who won't be played is pretty dull, after all. wink

If you're suspicions are aroused, then please report it and move on. We promise to look into each and every report."

[AliceWyrld]

Hully - that is exactly what you want. Did you have anyone tell you to put that book down, stop being so silly, you're unhinged for reading it? That's what we want to stop. There isn't an agreed definition of feminism or agreement on the issues raised. That is precisely what I think should be discussed on a feminist borad.

[AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen]

Hully, then surely you must be able to find some points of agreement, based on your wide knowledge of feminism. Does that not interest you? Are you bored of feminist discussion, unless it is about the way this board operates, rather than even about feminism?

[LeBOF]

I think we should ask Edd exactly what the MNHQ post said- I believe he has it laminated above his toilet.