In light of MNHQ's recent statement that the feminism section is in fact not a feminism section but a section 'about' feminism, perhaps we need to be warning people about this up front?

[Beachcomber]

I'm of the opinion that it needs to made clear that whilst the title may be 'feminism/women's rights', this section is quite different to other boards that deal with feminism/women's rights.

It isn't fair to mislead - lots of posters expect the section to be a place where feminist views can be freely explored without fear of posters' mental health being questioned, and a zone where misogyny is unwelcome. In reality, pretty much anything goes here and whilst it is, of course, MNHQ's prerogative to run their site as they see fit, some sort of disclaimer about the section seems only fair in order to forewarn posters (especially posters looking for support or exploration of sensitive issues).

Perhaps it would be an idea for there to be a header at the top of the section stating MNHQ's position?

All suggestions welcomed .

[bibbitybobbityhat]

Perhaps mnhq are unable to commit the amount of person hours required to moderate the board to your liking, and you could ask for special dispensation for a closed self-moderated section, seeing as how it is your stated desire to have the Feminism section work differently to the rest of Mumsnet.

Or you could go and form a Feminism forum of your own?

[CaptainNancy]

I think I would be happy for MNHQ to swiftly ban (on a temporary basis?) posters that derail or stifle debate. Deleting posts is not always helpful, as I think allowing posts to stand lets others see what these people really think.

I too do wonder why people would be allowed to peddle misogynist views when (quite rightly) rascist or disablist posters are quickly dealt with- a legality issue maybe? Isn;t gender-based discrimination outlawed too though?

[Beachcomber]

I don't think one has to have a hugely raised consciousness to figure out that calling feminists insane, humourless, time wasting, lecturing, man hating and emotionally damaged are not feminists acts .

Banging on about there being no need for feminism, that women lie about rape, that men do not benefit from male privilege and that feminists need to get a life, hardly need PhD level skills in order to spot as not compatible with the generally agreed on tenets of feminism, either surely?

[CaptainNancy]

If you do take up bibbety's suggestion, could you please not do it then leak the details onto MN on Dec 24th...

[LeBOF]

Begonya- I am trying to develop the art of sliding my eyes past certain posters, and throwing in the odd report. I've had mail back from HQ to say they're "deciding what to do about" one in particular. I can only conclude they've decided to do bugger all.

[LeBOF]

Nancy

[CaptainNancy]

Sorry beachcomber- not sure who you're answering as it's all moving a bit fast for me now... but if people are behaving as you state there then MNHQ hardly need flag it up as surely it is blindingly obvious to anyone reading that these idiots can be ignored?

[Beachcomber]

Bibbity I'm not sure if your post was addressed to me as the OP, but I have posted a couple of times that I am NOT asking for special treatment for the feminist section. You may have missed those posts though.

I'm suggesting a header for the topic - a bit like the one they have in AIBU. There is a precedent for this sort of thing on MN .

[OTheHugeRaveningWolef]

The best way to make feminism more outreachy and pervasive would be to get rid of FWR as a separate section. It's no wonder there's a perception about a 'party line' on what the 'correct' form of feminism is: hived off into a little ghetto, with a single theme of conversation, attitudes are bound to harden and unspoken rules emerge. That's the nature of ghettos.

Why not go back to the assumption that all of MN has a feminist flavour, rather than jus one corner? I feel uncomfortable with the way the separate section so often invites comparison with the dog or chicken-keeping sections. Feminism isn't a hobby; it's not a bolt-on addition to life. But when I see a small group of people sat in a separate section on a huge discussion board, talking amongst themselves and getting outraged by dissent, that implies treating feminism like a hobby. Is that what we really want? I like feminism. My life would be shit without it. But I don't like self-righteous little gangs of zealots, which is what the separate space seems to encourage - and what at least some of the trolling is about.

The truly bonkers misogynist fringe trolls are a separate, unpleasant issue. But lots of trolls are just irresistibly drawn to groups of people with rigid belief systems that are easily baited. If there's a whiff of persecution complex then so much the better. And unfortunately the separate feminism section here on MN does tick those boxes. If it weren't separate the more extreme feminists might be mellowed a bit by more mainstream views and - who knows - a few mainstream ideas might take on a more feminist slant. And there'd be tons more people to take on any trolls. But if, instead, you stick a sign over the door of your ghetto saying 'WARNING: THE RULES IN HERE ARE EVEN MORE COMPLICATED THAN WE THINK YOU THINK THEY ARE' you'll just marginalise feminist discussion even further.

If being marginalised provides something satisfying to analyse from a feminist perspective And that's enough for you then great, carry on; but if you want to get a message out then have the confidence of your subject, stop hiding in a corner muttering among yourselces and talk about feminism all over the rest of MN. If anyone dares to say 'shouldn't this be in a separate feminist topic?' I'd be the first to flame them.

[CalatalieSisters]

I like Trillian's suggestion that no poster should discount or stigmatise another's views by calling them non-feminist (except in very clear cases of explicit assertions of unequal rights, capacities). It is horribly oppressive when a dissenting view is treated in that manner: discussion is reduced to tha maintainance of orthodoxy and the condemnation of heresy. A board that was for feminists only, rather than 'about feminism' would risk institutionalising that kind of dogmatism. I do agree that there is a place for such boards, but I don't think Mumsnet is the right place for it -- partly because it would require massive moderation commitments that MNHQ likely couldn't take on but also because this is a mass site, for open discussion.

[AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen]

Don't forget the over-thinking , the suck it up, you're a woman and made your choice, so tough shit, the it's your own fault, you shouldn't be such a doormat and, Isn't feminism about choice and I/they choose to do it, so I/they must be feminists, Beachcomber.

[KatieMiddleton]

I'm not sure what to make of this. I do think it's important the knobbers who post crap on the boards (wherever they do it) need tackling by those on the threads and if necessary reporting to MNHQ. I also think there should be safe threads where people can post for support without having to justify themselves to the knobbers.

Boards like the feminism/women's rights do much to educate which is a Good Thing and it would be nice for that to continue. It used to feel a bit dominated by the rad-fems more than the liberals (pos because they are less laid back??) but I'm not sure that's true these days.

Agree with a hide poster option. I have changed my mind on that based on several knobbers who have appeared on the boards in recent times.

[Hullygully]

I think I agree OTheHuge

Sorry to be a pain, but what WAS the original idea behind a separate section? I don't remember.

[CalatalieSisters]

Splendid post, OTheHugeRaveningWolef.

[Beachcomber]

Captain Nancy that post was more in response to Hully wondering about the sort of stuff some of us object to as not showing a genuine interest in feminism.

I don't think it is so easy to ignore that sort of stuff because it is so prevalent.

[KatieMiddleton]

I can remember the thread where the feminism board was mooted. I argued strongly at the time (under a different name I think) not to have a separate board for the reasons OTheHuge gives.

But it's here now and i do think it facilitates some discussions that would not otherwise appear on MN. So how best to live with it to please the majority?

[giyadas]

I think feminism is still talked about all over MN, but it's a more situation specific, real life application of feminism, as opposed to the more theoretical discussion of ideas that goes on here.
I didn't notice a rise in stepford wifedom on the relationship boards when the feminism boards started, there were discussions about DV here which posters then used to help people on other boards.

[Hullygully]

Beach - no, they are of course all obvious red flags.

But it's more subtle than that, maybe it's as simple as the effects OTheHuge describes.

[edd1337]

Trolls wont go away. They'll still be here to throw the MRA, RA etc accusations around

Best to ignore

[LeBOF]

I think one good reason to keep the Feminism Section is that it is the avowed aim of the Manky Rectal Abcesses to shut it down.

So I agree with what Chickens posted, and will ease up on giving the trolls too much attention. Besides, my bed of illing awaits and I can see a good three hours of napping if I can get myself off this bloody phone...

[TheRhubarb]

Hang on, you want a section FOR feminists to talk about feminism and then you say that you are happy for it to be open to everyone - is that not a contradiction?

If you have an open debating forum you will get trolls and weirdos and creeps - most of them come onto Mumsnet just because it's called 'Mumsnet' and they usually head for the group they think will give them the most reaction and the most attention.

If you do not want to attract this sort of attention then the only option is to have a closed forum.

Otherwise every thread on Mumsnet should have a header warning people of trolls because there are equally sensitive threads such as those on bereavement, miscarriages, trying to conceive, breastfeeding, gay parenting etc - do their posters not also deserve some warning that trolls might be feeding?

The AIBU topic has a header because it's a general topic that is available to everyone and deals with every subject under the sun. The feminism topic is not. So if MNHQ put a heading over this topic, they would have to do so for every other topic - so why not just put a warning in the entire Talk section? Oh hang on, is this not a warning? "Please be aware this is a public forum and your postings are open for all to see."

This site is first and foremost a parenting site. The feminism is just a category within the site as a whole.

And as someone who has been the recent target of a nasty troll and has been a mumsnetter for 10 years (cough) I can honestly say that there are no more trolls on feminism than on any other topic. They come in cycles, you get a few all at once (probably because of a link on a website) and then it's the turn of another topic.

If you report vicious posts to MNHQ they DO delete that post and they WILL ban the poster. They don't always tell you what action they have taken to prevent that from being discussed all over the boards, but they do take serious action.

There have been nasty trolls on here since I can remember. The only course of action you should take is to click on report and then DO NOT FEED IT. Because I've noticed that the trolls get a lot of attention, which then attracts further trolls and word gets around that this particular topic provides great entertainment. So hard as it might be, you just have to pledge between you all to report and ignore.

[Beachcomber]

RaveningWolef I actually think that is a really sad suggestion.

There are lots of different sections on MN with different points to them.

Having a child with special needs isn't a hobby. Neither is parenting a tricky teenager or caring for a parent with a terminal illness.

I'm getting quite annoyed actually by these repeated accusations that people like me wish the feminist section to be exclusive and elitist and only for muttering zealots (in other words those insane type feminists).

I just think it is within the realms of the possible and the reasonable for the section to be a useful and interesting feminist resource for MNers with an interest in feminism. I think the section is able to do that a lot of the time.

However saying as it is clear that the section is 'about' feminism as opposed to being an actual feminist section, I'm of the opinion that honesty is the best policy and we need a wee header.

It seems quite a fair and reasonable suggestion to me.

[TheRhubarb]

I completely agree with Huge. Mumsnet is always campaigning for women's rights and there is a lot of support for women on here. So why the need for a separate topic? Feminism is a part of a woman's life so it should be completely inclusive, not exclusive.

[CaptainNancy]

Good post OTheHuge... but I think the demographic of MN posters has changed somewhat. There are a lot of posters who do not seem to have feminist thinking pervading throughout their lives. Dare I say that there are many younger posters these days, for whom feminism seems to be a dry, academic subject that is confined to HE study along with other 'isms', not a way of life.

[edd1337]

There have been nasty trolls on here since I can remember. The only course of action you should take is to click on report and then DO NOT FEED IT. Because I've noticed that the trolls get a lot of attention, which then attracts further trolls and word gets around that this particular topic provides great entertainment. So hard as it might be, you just have to pledge between you all to report and ignore.

Great idea, but at this point who is to say what is a troll and what is not? It seems that anyone who disagrees or has a different viewpoint is trolling