In light of MNHQ's recent statement that the feminism section is in fact not a feminism section but a section 'about' feminism, perhaps we need to be warning people about this up front?

[Beachcomber]

I'm of the opinion that it needs to made clear that whilst the title may be 'feminism/women's rights', this section is quite different to other boards that deal with feminism/women's rights.

It isn't fair to mislead - lots of posters expect the section to be a place where feminist views can be freely explored without fear of posters' mental health being questioned, and a zone where misogyny is unwelcome. In reality, pretty much anything goes here and whilst it is, of course, MNHQ's prerogative to run their site as they see fit, some sort of disclaimer about the section seems only fair in order to forewarn posters (especially posters looking for support or exploration of sensitive issues).

Perhaps it would be an idea for there to be a header at the top of the section stating MNHQ's position?

All suggestions welcomed .

Shall I just report slhillys post (making it clear that I am doing so because it is fab, not because it is to be deleted!!) and ask if it can be made into a sticky?

Or do we need to email or summat?

Vesuvia - nail/head

Not had time to read the thread, apart from the first few posts.

I agree that there should be a header, like in AIBU, making it clear that it is a section "about feminism" rather than a feminism section.

I've got that function too blackcurrants. In my PM it said they were rolling it out alphabetically so that may be why.

(You might need to think about where it should be a sticky. Don't most people access threads through Active Conversations, rather than through a topic's own list of threads. So a sticky that didn't wasn't stickied on Active Convos wouldn't reach many. It's unlikely that a permanent stickie of that sort could be in Active Convos.)

edd's comment about young teenage girls liking attention from men (or words to that effect) was not in itself offensive to me.

As a comment in itself, I am not sure if it actually is offensive. Had it been followed with: 'and they like it and deserve all they get', by god, that would be very offensive.

If he, however, he meant that teenage girls who are starved of genuine affection in their home life sometimes mistake the perverted attention of grown men for proper affection as opposed to the attention of perverts who are using them and that abusers take advantage of their vulnerability, that would be a very different thing, as we all know that abusers target young teenagers who nobody else looks out for.

I found his post ambiguous, but not in itself offensive as it stands. There needs-or needed to be- further elaboration for me to make a judgement.

Ok, how about you just ignore ignore ignore.

If edd and his mates are happily posting on the feminist topics then that should tell you something. That they are getting enjoyment out of it.
So ignore.

I made a suggestion of an explanation of how self moderation works and a reminder at the top of every talk topic. Because people still don't seem to know that they can report a poster or hide threads or block PMs or that a moderator will not come along in 2mins flat to take the nasty post away. Most other forums have special moderators, this one does not and I don't think there is enough explanation of how self moderation works.

I hold my hand up that it was me that first mentioned edd. I knew it was a tangent but thought it was important that we don't tiptoe around but actually name names and specific behaviours. I agree that it's not fair to get cross with edd for responding.

Rhubarb: I'm at a loss, tbh. I can't see how quoting an entire first post can possibly be taking a quote out of context. I also think you have an extraordinarily generous interpretation of what he says, which ignores the plain meaning of his words. One of the many lessons I learned from Dittany was that it was important to address what they actually said, not what they or others would have liked them to have said. This isn't pedantry; it's actually about respecting them enough to pay attention to the specific words they used.

You want me to name all the trolls; I don't want to. Just discussing Edd takes up enough (more than enough) space. I think there are others there.

Do the report thing, Beachcomber.

(just an aside, and massively simplifying, innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept meaning that the burden of proof lies with the prosecution who has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the accused committed the crime. It has nothing to do with believing a victim of a crime before a trial.)

I'm struggling to understand how any of the suggestions will stop what you are so concerned about though. A change of title, or a caveat at the top of the board is not going to deter the trolls, the derailers or the arrival of anyone else you do not wish to post here.

The feminism/women's rights board is like any other on MN, or indeed the internet. It is public and open. Which means that anyone posting personal information has to be very careful and think twice before they post.

If the thread attracts trolls then, like every other thread, report them. Do not engage with them and do not reply with equally offensive posts.

If someone is a derailer, ignore them. Once you engage with them they have achieved their ambition - as has been proved only too clearly on this thread. The attention devoted to our resident derailer must be providing him with great satisfaction.

Yay! Hugz!

Listen, this section was great and can easily be mint and ace all over again. The hobby/clique/ghetto stuff is nonsense as far as I can see. MN was always a feminist place because it give space and credence and power to women's lived experiences. There are some 'out' feminists, some 'fem-curious' types, and some 'argh no you durrrty equality festishists!' on here, and absolutely everyone is welcome as far as I'm concerned.

What gets boring is "you're stupid/mad/wrong/ugly/deranged/wasting your time to be talking about this-' which is cropping up on almost every thread at the moment. (the fact that, despite this, there are STILL great threads, shows how ace this place can be). I don't compare it to chickens or S&B (they're nice over there, aren't they?!) but rather to religion or, perhaps, bereavement. Other points of view (atheism) = all part of the debate, all to the good. "you're stupid and mad and wrong to even discuss this and I want to stop it and so will try my hardest" = STIFLING the debate that everyone, everyone wants.

I wouldn't go to the Bereavement section and say "why don't you all just move on? You're over thinking this. You're acting a wee bit me-me-me. Get over it!" BECAUSE that's not what the place is for, it would be stopping the discussion, and frankly, it would bloody rude.

We are not the borg. We do not want consensus and circle time. We want space to talk without being told, effectively, to shut up.

I think sihilly's post is excellent :)

OK - so how can this great idea be implemented then?

Perhaps the best would be to email MNHQ about this thread with a copy of the post by vesuvia/slilly.

I'm sure they would know how best to go about it. Perhaps we can have a wee link thingy to it at the top of each thread? A bit like the comment on AIBU but with a linky? Non?

I agree with Rhubarb

But then I didn't think Bob was a troll either. Poor old Bob got mullered until his psyche disintegrated.

Sometimes people persistently disagreeing is just that. Not derailment, sly trolling etc, just a refusal to throw the towel in and a persistence in their belief.

But I know from before that makes me something (can't remember what), and I expect it will again.

Can't it just be the way I see things?

Blackcurrant I don't think you are bein told to shut up -- certainly not as energetically and obsessively as edd and similar have been repeatedly told to shut up, despite being fairly clearly not trolls, whatever else they are.

The comparison with bereavment is slightly offensive. Of course very different and incredibly high standards of sensitivity apply there, which needn't apply on a forum that is for discussion of intellectual ideas.

Beachcomber - yes that sounds a good idea.

BIWI - I think the point would be that we would all know where we stand with regards to the ethos of the section. Anybody, be they a regular radical feminist, or a poster somewhere else on the spectrum, could simply be directed to the sticky if they started posting like an arse.

Cal well I certainly didn't mean to offend, but consider this: posting rape myths (women ask for it, young girls like it, rape victims are liars) is triggering for people who have been raped and sexually assaulted. And I thought that going onto a bereavement area and saying 'get over yourselves!' would be similarly triggering, in fact I know it can be... so that's my comparison.

Feminism isn't all intellectual ideas, that's perhaps where my starting point might be different. It is how we deal with the fact that we are oppressed in a patriarchy. Which involves talking about our lived experience.

Also, I didn't make it clear - sorry - that insistent derailment and constant 'you're mad' is a silencing tactic, that attempts to close down discussion. That's what I meant by 'being told to shut up.'

blackcurrants - as people have said repeatedly, an open public forum like MN is not the best place for that.

hully - not the best place for what? Talking about a high profile, in-the-news thing like DSK? I think it is. But when rape myths are posted there, it's triggering for people who have been raped and sexually assaulted. They don't need to post details of their lives to be triggered by victim-blaming.

Hully you don't need to share personal details in order to be triggered by something in here.

You just need to read the triggering comments whilst innocently reading a thread about something that you are interested in/care about.

Hence why some of us post trigger warnings sometimes when we link to stuff/quote stuff.

Hully - Actually it's a pretty bloody good place for that. Huge, anonymous, supportive, not connected to 'real life' people that you may not be able to speak to. Great places for being able to confront stuff. The same for people posting about bereavement, able to talk to people that aren't emotionally involved, lots of people, supportive etc.

Of course you might get shit back. But the blame for that does not fall on the person doing the telling.