In light of MNHQ's recent statement that the feminism section is in fact not a feminism section but a section 'about' feminism, perhaps we need to be warning people about this up front?

[Beachcomber]

I'm of the opinion that it needs to made clear that whilst the title may be 'feminism/women's rights', this section is quite different to other boards that deal with feminism/women's rights.

It isn't fair to mislead - lots of posters expect the section to be a place where feminist views can be freely explored without fear of posters' mental health being questioned, and a zone where misogyny is unwelcome. In reality, pretty much anything goes here and whilst it is, of course, MNHQ's prerogative to run their site as they see fit, some sort of disclaimer about the section seems only fair in order to forewarn posters (especially posters looking for support or exploration of sensitive issues).

Perhaps it would be an idea for there to be a header at the top of the section stating MNHQ's position?

All suggestions welcomed .

Talking about highly painful and personal experiences triggered by etc

blackcurrants wrote:

insistent derailment and constant 'you're mad' is a silencing tactic, that attempts to close down discussion. That's what I meant by 'being told to shut up.'

I will respectfully add that constantly being told you're trolling, a woman hater, etc, also means 'being told to shut up'. And, since we're talking abuser tactics, so does having your posts misconstrued and your attempts to correct misapprehension denied.

I'm not talking about wanting a special place to obsessively detail personal things, I'm talking about "My DD has been told she can't have a blue bike cos she's a girl, how should I explain what's going on?" to her kinda stuff. Which is IMO exactly what MN is about. When that kind of thread has people making suggestions and providing links to 'pink stinks' or something, then someone comes on and says "you're overthinking it!" "you're all mad!'' or whatever, it's annoying, derailing, and bloody rude. And that's what this section is dealing with at the moment.

Alice - yep, it's fine as long as you don't mind the fact you are laying yourself open to abuse, stalking etc

It's not about blame, it's about being mindful of reality

garlic - sorry, I'm a big vague this morning, not much sleep - am I being accused of something? I am not trying to offend anyone here, or having a go at anyone.

blackcurrants - I thought you were referring to the lived experiences triggered by rape/violence threads.

I suppose I think that, particularly on a mass open site like this it is not appropriate to have a Feminist discussion topic that seeks to exclude anti-feminist comment (especially given the stifling orthodoxy that sets in when differing views within feminist discourse are marginalised by being called anti-feminist).

So what's left is excluding the expression of views that is just attacking and offensive by the normal, across the board MN guidelines.

There is of course the furhter problem of repeated anti-feminst comment becoming derailing. There does have to be some moderation-stance against that sort of problem, but in all honesty all of the Feminsm threads I have looked at in the last week or so have been derailed by troll-calling and personal attacks on a couple of alleged trolls, not by anti-feminist posting at all.

The only thinh to enjoy here rhubard is the conversation. I get no kick out of this strange behaviour I am being accused of

Ok, I have to get my sorry ass out of my sick bed and go and get my kids.

Before I do I'm going to;

Report this thread in order to bring it to the attention of MNHQ so they are in the loop.

Email with a copy of the slhilly/vesuvia post.

Report said post so MNHQ don't have to trawl through the thread looking for it.

Take some paracetamol.

Okay dokey?

No, blackcurrants, not personal and thank you for checking.

I am exhausted by this section, actually. It's too hard to have a balanced discussion. And that's not because of 'trolls', ime, it's all about the preponderance of posters who wish to control what others write, or how they write it.

I made a resolution to avoid all "threads about posters we don't like" here. Should have stuck to it :(

Agree, garlic. That is essentially why I don't often post.

It's why a lot of people don't post. It's really a shame.

Ah, so hard to keep to those ones! I, for example, resolve that this will be my last post before evening, as I MUST do some bloody work. Will I manage it? Watch this space.... :)

so my example earlier: a thread called ""My DD is upset because she has been told she can't have a blue bike cos she's a girl, how should I explain what's going on?"

is IMO exactly what MN is about. Parents supporting parents. Great stuff. The OP could put that in Parenting, could put it in AIBU, could put it in her post-birth club, even. But if that OP puts it in Feminism/Women's Rights, then the chances are that he or she is hoping for some suggestions and support from a feminist perspective.

And, of course, if that OP posts that kind of thing in this section, they will certainly get support and resources and suggestions from a feminist perspective. BUT at the moment they will also probably get some kind of "just get her a bloody blue bike" or "you're overthinking it" or "tell her to tell them to STFU" or "get her a pink bike then" - which is not from a feminist perspective, not supportive, and not actually very courteous.

So far, so run-of-the-mill-internet-life. BUT isn't it a bit misleading? To title it "FWR" and then have the poor poster encounter stuff that he or she could have had in Parenting, AIBU, or any other section for free?

I am not clear today, but does anyone get what I'm saying? At the moment we have a section guidelines that say racism and ablism are not cool here at MN, but sexism is just dandy. I don't want thought police and I love how MN is a bit of a free-for-all, but people come to a feminist section to talk about feminism, don't they? there's the rest of MN, heck, the rest of the world to be anti-feminist in, if you want to.

Have done the reporting but have to go out. Will do email later.

Cheer up everybody - if we get this made a sticky it will apply to everybody and if you think someone is out of order you can refer them to the sticky.

That should help with the posters who don't post because they think the section is too aggressive.

Win-win surely?

win win win!

Oh bugger... I said I wasn't going to post anymore!
Right, must work and earn money or will neglected child will starve etc. Have a lovely rest-of-day everyone!

blackcurrants - two things, then I too must do some work!

First, people are posting all over the place on MN at the moment (usually in AIBU!), so they could come across any kind of response anywhere.

Second, and IMVHO, if the kind of responses that you give as an example keep being trotted out, then surely the best response is to trot out the feminist reposte? And keep doing it. Not just retreat to a small corner of the boards to have a deeper, more intellectual discussion about it.

I would imagine that anyone posting the blue bike question anywhere on MN would be hoping for and expecting and receiving a broadly feminist perspective. That is certainly my experience of MN. And they will risk exposure to a few knobs, more so on the feminist topic because its creation has attracted attention that might otherwise not have been attracted.

BIWI, I think a problem with the feminist topic is not that you get more intellectual discussion there, but that in fact you get less (despite what I might have thought of as the point of the topic), because people post too proscriptively for a proper exchange of ideas.

Just as to whY SN got locked (I was anti actually when it happened but think it was probably right)

It was partly ebcuase of support and trolls (you'd get things like someone chatting about inco products for fake dds and asking detailed qs then you would realise that tehyw ere just getting off on it- pretty horrid) but also what was happening, back when MN ws smaller so active convos was a bit more representative, was that someone would post for example 'can someone tell me where to get anppies to fit my 5 year old'' and people would pile in with why haven;t you bothered to toilet train them... and there'd be lot of ooops sorry not notied it was in SN. At that stage when people were less thread / topic bound people read headings less.

Anyway wrt to feminism- I;ve el;arned laods on here and I like it that I can dip in whn I am up for ebing challenged and avoid when not. In these days of hide topic I am not sure locked threads is quite the same anyway, I just hide anything I do not wish to read on a daily basis.

AS for teh feminits or about feminists thing- well that comes down to your take of what feminism is does it not? i;ve been yelled at on hre for not matching someone else's definition then the next day told that of course I am (should say I am Peachy) so I for one would be a bit confused about whetehr I was welcome or not! Yet sometimes I like coming on here and being challenged and getting new ideas.

Anyway would it be sensible to set up a feminsts area in OTBT for sensitive discussions eg rape and then signpost people there (I know it's quite hard to maintain that and a crying shame that it seems to be needed) and try adn establish a sort of eminist club alongside the about feminism zone? Maybe even MNHQ could actively support that, same way I am sure they would if someone got nasty in MH. Even if on main board if there was a feminits club- for feminits section (well the shiney club works doesn't it) then maybe it would be better defined so you could deal more effectively with the trolls who do seem to be a complete PITA.

And as Rhubs said they do come in phases so hold tight: different wave every few months.

I do believe the best policy is to ignore. Someone who spends so much time on feminism will soon bugger off if no-one is taking any notice of what they are saying.

Having said that, I do think that a short sentence(s) at the top of EVERY topic should read something like "Posters are reminded that this is a public forum and therefore open to all. This is a self-moderating board so offensive posts should be reported and ignored."

I think the next Feminist Bootcamp should run a workshop on 'Yoga Techniques For Ignoring People On The Internet'.

am loving Vesuvia and Slhillys' suggestions here. Thanks for starting thread, Beachcomber.

Well MNHQ are being very efficient. I only popped out for a bit and they have emailed me to say that they are taking a look at the suggestions made here.

Thanks MNHQ!

You're welcome Sybil - I'm just really glad that some sensible ideas that could make the feminist section a nicer place for all, have been generated.

Massive bravo to vesuvia and slhilly too for coming up with ideas.

It is in HQ's hands now....