In light of MNHQ's recent statement that the feminism section is in fact not a feminism section but a section 'about' feminism, perhaps we need to be warning people about this up front?

[Beachcomber]

I'm of the opinion that it needs to made clear that whilst the title may be 'feminism/women's rights', this section is quite different to other boards that deal with feminism/women's rights.

It isn't fair to mislead - lots of posters expect the section to be a place where feminist views can be freely explored without fear of posters' mental health being questioned, and a zone where misogyny is unwelcome. In reality, pretty much anything goes here and whilst it is, of course, MNHQ's prerogative to run their site as they see fit, some sort of disclaimer about the section seems only fair in order to forewarn posters (especially posters looking for support or exploration of sensitive issues).

Perhaps it would be an idea for there to be a header at the top of the section stating MNHQ's position?

All suggestions welcomed .

I reckon SGM is right. I think we should email MNHQ with the suggestions above (and any tweaks that people want to add) and request that there is a sticky on the board.

Then MNHQ can decide what they want to do.

I'm glad such a constructive idea came out of this - looking back the header idea is a bit silly really.

If you don't like SGM's phrasing, Edd, it can be simply restated as "Edd has had posts deleted because they offended a mumsnetter enough that they reported it, and MNHQ found that the posts broke MN guidelines."

I really think you ought to be reflecting inwards on why your posts were deleted, not blaming others. MNHQ guidelines are hardly very stringent (as posters have been bemoaning here), so you have to be really pretty fucking vile in a post to get yourself deleted.

I'm not going to stalk him slhilly. I read his first comment on that thread in question and [shock horror] I agree with him. Although it was very stupid of him to post that on a thread dealing with rape.

He said that none of you knew the woman, that the man is innocent until proven guilty and that she could be lying, she could be after revenge but that you didn't know the full story. He is right, you didn't know the full story. It is wrong to presume guilt and that is exactly what jurors are told, never to presume. But that he posted it on that thread was very fecking stupid and ignorant of him.

I am not defending the man, but neither will I go off on a futile troll hunt for someone who is clearly not a troll.

What I do think is that he should sit on his hands more.

By that logic slhilly, so have others here that have had their posts deleted. Hell even some of dittany's posts were deleted too

Oh xposts with slhilly. I'm willing to start a thread but I'm not too sure what sort of thread you mean, sorry being a bit thick and woolly headed am in bed with sinusitis!

Do you mean a thread where people make suggestions for the sticky or say whether they agree with it in principal or not?

Yes I agree that credit goes to vesuvia and slhilly.

My idea was crap .

SGM - I've had posts deleted. Does that mean you presume all my posts were hateful? Have you never had posts deleted?

I came across around 4 deleted posts.

edd, if your posts are deleted on a feminist forum again, it doesn't cast you in a good light. You may have responded angrily to an insult for all I know, or you may have made a stupid remark, but there is more evidence that your posts are causing upset. For that reason alone, you should re-think how long you spend in feminism.

I'm not going to waste anymore time defending some guy I don't know. But I was expecting a fully offensive troll, I didn't find one. So where again are all the trolls targeting feminism?

I have only ever had posts deleted on feminism. All of them for pointing out troll like posting, funnily enough!

Annyhoo, so what do folks want as the next step? Someone to email MNHQ, someone to post a thread with what slhilly and vesuvia have come up with here?

I'm reading back on slhilly's post and not seeing anything to edit myself. What about the rest of you?

Rhubarb, I don't understand. You said you read Edd's first comment, but it did not say:

• none of you knew the woman
• the man is innocent until proven guilty
• she could be lying
• she could be after revenge
• you didn't know the full story

Edd's first comment read: "Serves the "victim" right for lieing. I hope she has to pay legal fees, gets charged and has to pay him compensation"
Is this what you agree with? Really? This comment says:

• Ms Diallo was definitely not a victim
• Ms Diallo definitely lied (not "could be lying", definitely
• Ms Diallo deserved to have her case thrown out
• Ms Diallo deserved to pay money for making a rape complaint
• Ms Diallo deserves to be the subject of a criminal case for making a rape complaint

So how did you get the impression from this first comment that Edd was simply saying innocent until proven guilty, we don't know the full facts, etc? In fact, reading the thread again, Edd didn't make any of the statements you attribute to him. Not one. I think you are mixing him up with others!

Sorry for not being clearer, BC. My suggestion was:

• you post the text I pulled together as a new thread in the Feminism section
• someone emails MNHQ to say "Please can we make this new thread a sticky?" (Kind of hoping someone other than me as I ought to get on with my work now!)

Lo and behold - I come back a few pages later and this thread has started to veer off on an entirely predictable and utterly fucking tedious tangent which PROVES the bastard point!!!!!

Rhubarb- I hope edd is very grateful to you for the time effort and energy you have spent in his defence. If I had the inclination I'd try to calculagte a percentage of how many words in the last 5 pages have been about edd.

edd, poppet, maybe you are the centre of your own universe. maybe people, real life people, adore you and you are the centre of their universe as well but why oh why oh why must a feminist thread be all about edd?!?!? Are there not enough male dominated spaces in the fucking world? Can people not see that :getting desperate:

In fairness to edd, I don't think he made this a thread about him. There were repeated referewnces to trolls that were increasingly obviously about him and then he was addressed several times directly and responded. Rhubarb seems to have got a constructuve response from him by engaging with him in something other than a baiting troll-calling manner.

It does really seem that it is the troll hunting as much as the alleged trolling that has derailed the feminist topic.

Every thread goes off on a tangent wakemeup, what do you want? To have moderators telling everyone to stop talking about duck sex and get back to the point in hand?

You can't have a go at someone who was mentioned specifically on a thread for coming onto that thread to defend themselves ffs!

slhilly - this is getting stupid. I did read his posts, you have taken them out of context. I'm not debating it further, I'm not his bloody mother.

I asked where the other trolls where. If you can name one you can name all the others surely?

But if a man with opposing views is all you have to worry about then I suggest you politely tell him that his views would be suited better elsewhere, then you ignore him.

Rhubarb there are some discussions on the section I think about how the trolling in feminist discussion areas takes a different form to standard trolling.

The attempt is to derail, bait and undermine. The point is to never be offensive enough to get banned and to keep enough on the right side of the guidelines that people who are less used to this sort of trolling fail to spot what is going and may even defend the poster.

It is pretty common in feminist spaces - usually under the guise of being a concern troll or somebody who cares about the subject and wishes to engage. These sorts of posters do sort of engage, but they engage at a level which constantly brings the level of the entire discussion back to basics and stuff that has been covered time and time again. When people object to the derailing, they are being mean and unhelpful and prejudiced.

It is cunning and sly behaviour.

4 Rhubarbo? Try 19 in 20 days. All in this section.

Do we need to start another thread in order to discuss the suggestions made by vesuvia and slhilly folks?

Here they are;

Heading: "What we'd like this board to stand for"
Text:
"When this board works well, it is jaw-droppingly good: profound insights, great courage, fantastic empathy and support, and excellent explanations and links to resources. When it doesn't work well...it can be a much less rewarding place. This post sets out what a few of us would like this board to stand for, as an attempt to make sure it can be as good as possible. We know ours is but a small selection from a much wider pool of voices, and it would be great if you added what you would like this board to stand for in the thread.

We'd like this board to take as core beliefs that:

1. females do not yet have equality with males
2. the need for equal rights for females
3. the right of feminism to exist
4. the right of feminists to express their liberal or radical opinions
5. feminism has been a force for good in society, improving the lives of hundreds of millions of people.

We want our discussions to be:

1. Both courteous and vigorous. This is easy to describe, difficult to do, especially when we are dealing with subjects close to our hearts.
2. Welcoming of everyone who, by the evidence of their posts, subscribes to these core beliefs
3. Stony ground for those people who: oppose the need for equal rights for women and girls; oppose the right of feminism to exist; oppose the right of feminists, be they liberal or radical, to express their opinions

This is the type of section that appeals to us."

TBH.....if I walked into a crowded room and they were all discussing model aeroplanes I'd not stick around.

Rhubarb - I'm just fed up of the SAME tangent SO many times. I did make it clear further upthread that I feel thread meandering and dereailing are similar but so very different. Can you perceive a difference? I'm not specifically thinking of edd actually but as he's here already I thought I'd mention him.

I shan't again. Plan.

OK gotcha slhilly. I'm willing to do it although perhaps vesuvia would like to?

Credit where it is due and all that.

Despite being ill and feeble I do have to go out soonish so might not do it till later.

ooh, a sticky would be good. Vevsuia et al's points v.v.gd.

[has activated a personal 'hide poster' function which means that this thread reads as a constructive discussion from which has emerged a great idea]

[may be deluded]