The departure of dittany

[Pan]

I only know that she has left, and in her post she didn't say much as to why, though some people can speculate and imagine why.

Quite a few days ago (last weekend I think) there were threads that pinpointed the lack of consideration that MNHQ has toward the sort of trolls that infest the FS section from time to time - different in nature and purpose to your average troll that infects MN from time to time.

It may well be that d. is in contact with regular posters whom she trusts. I don't know.

What I do know is that d. was a fabulous source of invigoration and illumination to a lot of posters, myself included, though we didn't always agree with her.

I would like a review from MNHQ of their current "talk guidlines" policy, in order that the FS is provided with a consideration that recognises the particular vulnerability that it experiences.

D. left for her own reasons - but this presents itself as a sort of 'test case' for MN to respond sensitively.

Would anyone agree and post here in support of this?

no,request in for mngq to review fem topics with view to different type of moderation.last week someone wwas accusing mnhq of undermining the threads saying she felt fem topic was got at. it was quote a persecutory outburst

and mnhq have clarified the fem topic is open to all,not just feminists

so this call for review of guidelines is misplaced

LRD, scottishmummy has a point. One of the reasons I don't generally post in this topic is that things do get very heated and I know that a few posters have made it very clear they felt bullied on some of these topics.

That does not condone the sickos, but just look at the mis-reading of my posts already and the accusations that I have said this topic should be shut down and regulars should leave. I have said nothing of the sort.

Over-reactions will feed the trolls and perhaps this topic is being picked on exactly because of that.

Sorry if that's not what you want to hear, but that is the truth.

Just to clarify however, I am not condoning any troll or sick comments and I think MNHQ needs to come down very hard on any such troll. And it's worth reminding the trolls that tech can trace their IP addresses which will lead the police to their rl addresses - it's been done before. Not on Mumsnet, but on another site, the police were called after an IP address was traced.

SQ, no there was no website? I said that some trolls were targeting single mums, I don't know where they come from, perhaps it's just one troll.

I remember singlewhitefemale. Nasty piece of work.

No they can't trace their IP addresses, they come through proxy servers.

Well they do if they've got half a brain

There are sites called things like "hide me" that are v easy to use.

LRD: I totally agree that it should be just like the rest of MN, and nothing I posted has said otherwise.

lrd there have been a plethora of mn posts that fem topics is harsh and unforgiving place to post. and it can be .there can be a definite cant say that here ethos

anf frankly fore as long as fem topic high 5 and congratulate each other on how well they dried a troll or mr small cock big male entitlement, or rape apologist well it makes it harder to try take any neutral ground

rhubarb - ok, that was impatient of me.

I don't think feminists here are asking for special consideration. I think all we're doing is asking 1) that the existing rules be properly kept, and 2) that the guidelines be changed as has happened often in response to concerns. It's not special consideration to ask for a change in guidelines - it happens when one section or another gets extensively trolled or when HQ feels things are getting out of hand.

The way I feel about posters saying they don't post here because feminists are nasty posters is ... if I'm nasty, I'm sorry. But we're not a homogeneous mass. We're not all responsible for each other. Nor do we always agree. I'm fucking sick of people saying they had a spat with a feminist so we're all nasty, especially when i've had teh same spat. Does that make any sense?

sm, you will also be familiar with the zillions of posters saying you are very harsh. You don't change your posting style. I don't think it's fair to expect others to do so when you won't.

Personally, i don't think you should have to, but I don't get what you're trying to achieve.

med - sorry, I misread. Thread moving too fast.

and lrd i dont post asking for talkguidelines to be reviewed regards me
i dont post that mn treats me badly and is letting others get at me

these have been themes re fem topics
thre seems to be a bit of a feeling got at and undermined vibe posted by some on fem topics

so no you cant individually compare one sole poster to a topic asking for mnhq to moderate in a sympathetic way

So?

There are good points being made here, imo, but getting a bit lost in FWR's usual shouty and backbiting thread style.

The FWR board is not for the exclusive use of feminists. Many, on this thread and all the others, including Dittany at times, have insisted it is.

Posters who want a forum restricted to feminists only should, indeed, seek membership of a closed fem board. That closed board will not be on Mumsnet.

Since FWR is not closed, members only, or feminists only, then you will get posts from users who are not feminists and may even be anti-women. Why is it so hard to understand they have a right to post their views?

Why is it so hard to shrug off hostile posts? Why take everything as a personal insult? Why pursue posters whose views you dislike, instead of "walking on by"?

Or so hard, alternatively, to take the view to task, in general terms, instead of posturing as above? Those of us who reconsidered our views courtesy of Dittany*, did so because she tackled our viewpoint not our identity.

Mumsnet posters offer amazing support to the vulnerable - in relationships, SN, various other boards. An adult with emotional fragility around certain issues is responsible for avoiding potentially triggering threads. There's a 'Hide' button.

.

*I'm never sure whether it's a double N or double T.

Yes that makes sense and I don't think that they are saying that all feminists are nasty, just that it can get heated and when you have a few posters all having a go I guess you can feel bullied. But of course every person is different. Mumsnet has been described as a nest of vipers by other parenting sites, but we all know that whilst it can contain that element, there are more than enough nice, considerate and supportive posters to contradict that.

I don't think that anyone feels the feminist section deserves more than their fair share of trolls and as scottishmummy has said, because we've all been there and seen it happen on other sections, we can all sympathise. It's not different on here, it's not more offensive on here, it's just the same. Someone going into the bereavement threads to say they have lost a child, befriending other mums and then turning into some weirdo who frightens the life out of posters who have trustingly given rl details to this troll is just as upsetting and frightening.

Yes MNHQ do need to do something if this kind of thing is happening more often, but what is the answer?

SQ - those hide sites are not foolproof. You need to be a professional hacker to know exactly how to hide your IP address and even they are often caught out.

I think some posters (possibly those who have been disagreed with in this section) are confused about what FS regulars are asking for here.

If you've come on here in a genuine spirit we don't mean you, even if you've said something that we would consider misogynistic or controversial. There is a difference between genuinely disagreeing and being inflammatory (even when it's done subtly) and we can tell the difference (even if it takes a few posts before being obvious). There are numerous posters on here who have had quite a flaming for various things they've posted but they've stuck around because they've wanted to engage and learn. We welcome that and actually quite enjoy it. It's boring when people agree with us all the time.

We're talking about posters who are sending threatening PMs, cyber-stalking, making deliberately inflammatory statements with no apologies when called on something deeply offensive/misogynistic, and persistently derailing with no facts to back up their POVs just reiterating the same points over and over and over and over again in a bid to prevent the thread from really developing some interesting discussion.

If you read through threads 6 months ago and compare them to threads recently, the differences are extremely clear. The FS section has been targetted and we can tell who disagrees with us because of genuinely held beliefs and who disagrees with us just to cause offence/derail.

If anyone has had a flaming on here it's because we think your arguments are wrong and we've had a lot of practise at demonstrating why because as feminists we encounter these sorts of arguments quite a lot. That doesn't mean we want you to stop posting. If people are lumping themselves in with the trolls when they read our requests for MNHQ to step in, then perhaps they're being more than a little defensive themselves.

I think this must be the longest I've ever seen you bumping gums in the feminist section, scottishmummy.

nail on head.garlicbutty
some on fem topics conceptualise it as feminist board,when its a feminist topic on an open forum.and yes mnhq did clarify this.and yes if you seek a feminists safe space go set up a closed members forum,with posting rules and parameters.that will need to be somewhere other than mn

I've just always wanted to say that, sorry. Do continue.

Isn't there a difference between lone fruitcakes and organised attacks though?

That is the side of is that I find disturbing TBH. People who disagree etc can be annoying but that's the way it is. I just find the organisation element to this really quite scary.

ive bumped gums and been told to get off the fem section since it started i will have you know i post here actively and have been told

• not welcome
• are you drunk
• cant say that here

...all dutifully ignored of course

but these aren't lone trollers looking for attention or a forum invasion done for the lulz, it's a campaign which is totally focused on shutting down the feminist section, because it's discussing feminism. It's totally different to the other invasions. These trolls consider themselves to be activists, and shutting down the fs and to a lesser extent mn is the goal.
They've made websites, forums, videos, fb pages and they go around other forums trying to 'educate' others on the evil that is the mn fs, and encourage them to troll here under the guise of 'fighting misandry'. No other section gets this.
No-one is asking to be protected from other MNers who may disagree with them. They just don't want to lose the fs because misogynists from elsewhere on the web don't like it.

rhubarb - I don't know what the answer is, but I do think it needs working out, not ignoring as some have suggested, simply because that doesn't work.

Trolling is horrible. The trolls who've done things like pretending to be bereved mums are incredibly damaging to anyone who gets sucked in, and I can see why sm keeps reminding us the net is not safe from that sort of thing.

I think what's happening here is mostly a bit different, a bit more like the prat in Lesbian/Gay Parenting atm who's Bible Bashing (it's been on and off active threads all day). It's very nasty. I couldn't compare it to other trolls for 'seriousness' and I don't see the point.

The reason for comparing what's ahppening in this section to AIBU or whatever is this: if someone comes along and reads one or two threads, they'll think 'why are those feminsts so bitchy ... this person they're slating just disagrees innocently and they're being flamed'. But if you see lots of the threads, they start to look different from that. I see people get fed up on AIBU with specific, abrasive posters. But I would put a lot of money on the fact that those abrasive posters are genuine. They're not on the wind-up, however annoying they may be and however inappropriately they may sometimes post. IMO, the trolls here, like the trolls in SN, are on the wind up. That is worse than standard AIBU argy bargy, because it's motivated by trying to hurt people by posting in a certain way. And that is trolling. Not easy to recognize, not easy to police - but that doesn't mean it's not a real problem.

sunshine. We get that. What we are saying that is every single topic has been targetted by trolls who have hurt and upset and frightened posters.

We suggested that the posting style of the feminist section is sometimes, perhaps, a little aggressive? Too quick to shout troll when someone disagrees with them? And that this could be a reason why it is targeted by trolls, who let's face it will often target a topic where the posters will engage because that's the fun of it.

However that does not give the trolls an excuse to behave in this pathetic and upsetting way.

I repeat - has anyone asked MNHQ to comment on this thread?

Because I think that what you all want - if I am right? - is for this topic to remain open but for MNHQ to take a firmer stance on trolls and to act quicker when those trolls are reported?

Perhaps next to the report this link, we could have a red flag that is prioritised for comments that are of an obscene nature. But then they'd need to make sure it isn't misused by posters who just want a quicker reponse to a personally offensive comment.