The departure of dittany

[Pan]

I only know that she has left, and in her post she didn't say much as to why, though some people can speculate and imagine why.

Quite a few days ago (last weekend I think) there were threads that pinpointed the lack of consideration that MNHQ has toward the sort of trolls that infest the FS section from time to time - different in nature and purpose to your average troll that infects MN from time to time.

It may well be that d. is in contact with regular posters whom she trusts. I don't know.

What I do know is that d. was a fabulous source of invigoration and illumination to a lot of posters, myself included, though we didn't always agree with her.

I would like a review from MNHQ of their current "talk guidlines" policy, in order that the FS is provided with a consideration that recognises the particular vulnerability that it experiences.

D. left for her own reasons - but this presents itself as a sort of 'test case' for MN to respond sensitively.

Would anyone agree and post here in support of this?

BEST X POST EVER

(Also to Dorje - I'd say it's not been my experience that men and women always communicate in different styles, or that they can't change. I do* think men are encouraged to communicate in one way, and women are rebuked for doing the same - in fact it's one of my big concerns - but my experience, subjective as it is, has made me more comfortable with the nurture explanation than the nature one, here.)

I don;t want to protect the section from being open to all comers

I am concerned about people being stalked, having abusive PMs sent to them, being targeted and named on other websites set up to talk about MN and in particular this section, and I am concerned about the fact that organised people elsewhere are talking what tactics they should use when they come over here to troll. I am concerned that a few individuals out there seem to have an unhealthy interest with this section in general and some posters specifically. I find that quite odd and disturbing and had no idea there were people that sad out there TBH.

People are leaving here because they are scared. That needs to be talked about.

"Ok so the answer is that if women want to talk about feminism they have to hide away to do so?"

You can talk about it in an open, global forum, but you cannot police, on a site such as MN which has a stated light moderation policy, what people say nor who is there. If you want to have a more heavily moderated place, or a closed/approved community, then the answer is to join one elsewhere or set up what it is you want.

I can't see why these cannot co-exist. What does strike me as fruitless is trying to turn an open forum into something else.

Yes. Aren't you going to be sensible SQ?

Well this is what you said

"May I suggest that if you are emotionally vulnerable and want only support, that Mumsnet, as open as it is, is not the right website to be? This website is more about challenging viewpoints and taking these people to task. Which is what Dittany did. But that gets tiring when you are constantly at it, so I really do think that you need a supportive website for yourselves, a place of refuge that you can go to. It's not hard to set up such a website. Something to consider?"

Which is quite different from what you have said in your more recent post.

Apart from anything else people aren't "emotionally vulnerbale" they are extremely concerned about loons out there who are getting obsessed with them.

LRD - ok, I see your point. I have not personally seen any comments about sexual abuse. I would only hope that MNHQ act quickly on any such comments and do report them to the police.

I have read someone going on about being raped by men and suffering at the hands of men and she was pretty emotional about it, which is why I made my suggestion that if they wanted emotional support from feminists, an open thread on Mumsnet might not possibly be the best place for them?

Look, I'm sorry but Mumsnet is now very famous and very big and their policies have always been to have an open board. I remember all the hoo-hah when the parents of children with SN asked for their own topic. Posters thought that having separate topics would exclude others. It hasn't of course.

There are sick bastards out there and it's unfair that they are spoiling this topic, but I just don't see a compromise without making the topic exclusive and that I would not agree with.

meditrina - but why shouldn't people who post here have to abide by normal MN rules? MN as a forum already disallows certain kinds of posting. It's not an entirely open, unmoderated forum. And it changes posting guidelines quite regularly. All we're asking is, can't the rules be applied properly in this section, and, do we need another rule change to deal with trolls being really offensive?

If people wanted a closed forum I'm sure they'd have buggered off by now.

SQ - where in that quote did I say or suggest that this topic be moved or closed down?

Rhubard in all of that - about the cyber stalking, about people leaving because they are scared, about personal PMs etc, that is all you have to say?

Oh well maybe you could leave, like Dittany?

Not OMG that's awful?

Rhubarb - I see what you are saying, but I think if you had seen enough of some of these posts, you'd get it. There's a lot of seriously nasty stuff and HQ hasn't got on top of it IMO.

I don't want the topic to be exclusive and I don't like the idea that only certain people should post, but I do think some of teh trolls know exactly what game they're playing and they enjoy hurting people. Not people who're 'emotional' - just people who're discussing inherently emotive issues. You can't, and you shouldn't, discuss rape (or SN, where they've had a lot of trolls too, I reckon) without emotion.

Suggesting that the regular posters leave is exactly what the people who are trolling this section in an organised manner want.

I think it would be a real shame.

They want to shut down feminist discussion and scaring people off the board is working.

SQ - Custy has been personally targeted and attacked and her rl details accessed.
Cod was stalked and her rl compromised.
TrinityRhino was stalked here and on facebook
Same here.

We were not posting on the feminist threads. It happens which is why I am now ultra careful with my details. And besides can't you turn off your PMs or block people?

I am suggesting that what you are experiencing in feminism is what other Mumsnetters have experience too. But you are implying that somehow it is worse for you. How? Have you all had abusive PMs? Have you all been threatened by posters who have somehow got hold of your rl details? Have you had abusive facebook posts?

I don't post much - not here every day and things tend to have moved on by the time I get to them. But I do read threads all the way through and sit here open-mouthed at the way so many find it impossible to ignore the troublemakers. Perhaps it isn't so easy to spot what's going on when you're in the thick of it? Whatever, as MNHQ said - don't feed them!

I have no time for the hard of thinking either. This site, as is real life, is full of halfwits who seem to think they are entitled to opinions on matters they know nothing whatsoever about. Not to mention those who feel entitled to leap in with said opinions when they haven't bothered to read the thread. And those who clearly haven't understood the OP.

Feminism is a political movement, and also an academic one. If you find that sort of discussion intimidating, start your own at a level you do feel comfortable with. Don't expect everyone else to dumb down just because you can't keep up.

For the record, I've been a socialist feminist for 40 years, and time and again have known of feminist spaces shut down by just the kind of tactics being used here. I can understand why the MRAs are doing it - but the women who want this bit of Mumsnet silenced should be utterly ashamed of themselves. What the hell are you so scared of?

There are threads that crop up all over MN from time to time where you think 'oh, gosh, the OP really shouldn't be here'. Not because that person is unwelcome, but because they really do need RL support, or because they are getting attacked and it's horrible. But what has been happening in this section is not people starting threads when they're upset and needing RL support (in fact, few threads are that personal I think, and one of the most personal ones recently didn't get anything like the kind of trolling that's happened elsewhere on 'issue' based threads).

It's that we'll start talking about an issue and the topic will be derailed. One of teh trolls always starts talking about rape, for example. We couldn't get away from that by having a separate, closed feminist forum. We wouldn't be able to predict which seemingly innocuous threads would become troll-dominated and turn into emotive talk about rape myths or sexual abuse.

Yes I know about those things.

However they were not targeted in an organised way by a single group who disagreed with their views about say politics, were they.

It is no coincidence that the two who have left are the ones with the most extreme views (and I don't say that in a bad way!). When they left, the people with the next most extreme views were targeted.

That has not happened elsewhere on MN. No-one is picking off the Tory people on the politics section, one at a time.

SQ? Are you saying now that I have suggested you all leave?

Sorry, do you need someone to translate my posts?

Where on earth have I said that?

LRD I agree that if there are serious trolls who are targeting posters with vile comments then MNHQ should step in pronto. They did so a while back when we had trolls posting about suicide. Some sickos made some posters believe they had killed themselves and even posted as their friends to say they had died. We've also had women pretending to have lost children.

It's not a new thing.

MNHQ did eventually get hold of a few IP addresses and the problem temporarily went away, but it did take time.

I don't know what the process is but has anyone contacted them with a copy of this thread and asked for comment?

posters come,posters go,its the way of things ans inevutabaily they flounce with a swoosh ansd not like the ole days.mn has had many go and an earnest handwringing of how will it ever be as a good again.and it passes into mists of mn legend

so the nub here seem to be a request for fem topics to be moderated or treated differently from rest of mn

why?

you see as this threads illustrates plenty willing to deride and name call to perceived trolls .but expect a temperate and balanced posting style on fem topics to the extent they want mn to have a lighter touch on fem topics

lol,dont engage with trolls
the fem topic positively goes ape when they think troll in midst
the swearometer goes red hot
wank stain
wanker
fuck off
shatting his ears off
blah blah
...so you know what cant get all how very dare anyone come here and say that..when those rebukes are dished out.

insteasd of personalising this into a crusade for one poster, really have a look at what your asking. which seems to be moderate fem topics in a more sensitive mannner, handle it differently. essentially asking for special touch to be applied

dont want trolls or name calling except when its the fem topics regulars who are dishing it out of course

Rhubarb - don't think anyone's suggesting those weren't horrible thigns to happen when they happened ... but this is happening now.

The reason I'd say it's different from other bits of MN is that other bits of MN aren't all being heavily trolled right now (SN is, and there's a nasty thread in Gay/Lesbian Parenting). In the past, relationships has had it. IMO, trolls get cleverer and nastier all the time, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if when this section goes quiet, another section gets noisy.

Actually SQ, in Custy's case yes it was.

Also someone was targeting single mums on benefits for a while.

It seems to go in cycles.

sm - sorry, but how many times do we have to say you've got the wrong end of the stick here?

I think I'm off for a bit of RL.

Rhubarb my apologies maybe i did misread your opening post then.

So what do you think the answer is.

Rhubarb so there was a website set up for people to talk about targeting single mums, and how best to do it, and they came to MN and picked off the people who posted most in the single parents topic, one at a time.

That is terrible and something should have been done about that too.

Someone who posts in SN said upthread they thought that a few topics where this is a real problem should get together and think about what to do.

Who wants this section silenced?

The majority want it bigger, more open and more accessible

I don't think people realise how many people read and absorb and like the FWS but don't post because of many many reasons. For me, it isn't the trolls that stop me, you can see and ignore those, it's being accused of being a rape apologist/MRA etc

I've mentioned my children and me not wanting to send them here to see strong feminist speaking - would anyone really send their young adult sons and daughters to the FWS as it is now?