Heteromonogamy is really just another way to waste women's time, isn't it?

[solidgoldbrass]

All those books, articles, courses on how to Find The One, Make Him Commit, Keep It Exciting - keeping women occupied with the Perfect Relationship means they don't have time to do anything interesting with their lives.

What an utter knob SAF, you had a fantastically lucky escape there.

Was thinking about this thread and applying to my female friends last night...I won't go into detail because it is not fair..but 3 are dealing with cocklodgers and one is very happy in her hetromonogomous relationship, but the sheer amount of effort she has put into creating and maintaining that situation is phenomenal...

And you are providing a stable loving home for your DS.

You also have to bear in mind that a lot of awful men are quite good at hiding their true colours for a good long time - the amount of relationships that founder after the baby is born (even if the baby was planned and wanted) is amazing. Time after time, the woman didn't realise that the relationship was All About Him, that she was forever letting him have his own way, giving in all the time because, after all, it's only small stuff, what does it matter (and don't forget, a woman without a man in her life is a freak and a failure) - and when she has a baby to look after and the man continues to insist that he gets his own way, that his life doesn't change, that the woman continues to service him and stroke his ego... then if the woman is tough and smart enough, she throws him out, and finds herself stigmatized for being single.

i expect there to be some compromise in any close relationship, and that is normal. but there does seem to be a lot more compromise made by women, or is that just my biased opinion?

from a man's pov, if he goes to work & provides all (or most) of the money, then why should he not get some benefits in other ways?

to me, though, it starts to feel like he is 'buying' a woman & her services, even where they are both happy in the relationsip.

SAF - your thought process about how to best have another child makes sense.

It feels quite different to Shecutofhertail's thought experiment about a woman choosing different ways to have children at different phases in her life - some with the dad involved with their kid, others with the dad emotionally involved with them and the kid, others not knowing their dad at all. That 'pick and mix' principle seems like a bad idea for family harmony...

SAF - I see where you are coming from, I dont think there should be increasing pressure on women to get and stay married, but the idea of different kinds of (legal and social) contracts other than marriage I think is good, and different ways of thinking about roles in marriage (other than the 1950s one..).

It seems to me to defeatist to say that unplanned pregnancies will always happen and most women will get absolutely no control over whether their children's 'father's' are involved or not.

We have to the tools - contraception, negotiation between adults and formal and informal contracts for this to happen less, I don't think women should have to accept 'no control'. To just throw hands up in the air and say, that's the way things are seems to be the opposite of building social pressure for men to be decent to the women they sleep with and the children they father.

I agree that life happens, no one can plan everything. But just as I tell my DSs not to cross the road with out looking both ways, I will also tell them not to have sex without contraception unless they are TTC (...and have thought seriously together about what that means as a commitment). I don't think it is a question of 'sticking to the script' but making good decisions at the time.

I agree with SAF's points.

It is not 'defeatist' to describe the reality of what happens in people's lives. How can we push for change (i.e. feminism!) unless we confront the truth of what is actually happening? To call it 'defeatist' sounds a lot like those people who complain that feminists have a 'victim mentality', as if we can make things change through wishful thinking. We can't.

It's also male behaviour at fault when the couple decide that they want to have a baby and the man subsequently realises that actually he wasn't prepared for it, wasn't prepared to give up or reduce his social life and hobbies for a little while, and promptly has an affair. Of course, let's not forget the men who mistreat their partners while reminding them constantly that it's wrong for a woman to be single especially if she's a mother, so women should put up and shut up when it comes to crappy men For THe Sake Of The Children.

sAf is right. It is the men's responsibility to be fathers. Only they can choose to partake in their children's lives. It is not up to the mother's to force them.

I am astounded at the number of my mother's acquaintances who's husbands left them for younger women after years or marriage and have essentially cut their children out of their lives . The relationship failed, and that is a pity but to then choose to have minimal contact with your children, not share in the financial responsibility I'd abhorrent and uncommon.

Sorry, that was meant to read abhorrent and not uncommon

SAF - I am sorry, I didn't in any way mean to imply there is anything wrong with your family.

This stuff is very personal...we can't really talk about general principles in an abstract way because everyone has a family. I read the OP, and Cutofftheirtails dismissal of 'heteromonogamy as a waste of time' as saying my relationship with my DH (my mum my grandma, women I know with good relationships etc..) are all wasting their time.

I think in these kinds of discussions we tend to be pushed to extremes. ( you ask Should abortions be mandatory for unmarried mothers ? Of course not. WTF??)

A lot of societal pressure is from parents to children. I'm not thinking about forcing anyone to do anything, but more about what I tell my children (and more broadly what we all tell our children).

I tell them that there are all different kinds of families, what is important is people that respect each other. I won't tell them 'you must get married' but I will tell them that children should be planned between two people who like and respect each other and who are both willing to make a sacrifices and compromises involved (and that contraception isn't 100% effective).

Having children involves sacrifice in terms of time and freedom to 'do something more interesting' go and run the country, be the CEO etc..If the only alternatives that we have are women doing more than 50% of the work as wives in traditional marriages or as single mothers, I think either option is quite unsatisfactory.

Himalaya, OK perhaps I should have emphasised that it's the cult of heteromonogamy that is a waste of women's time, the idea that if you are not pursuing heteromonogamy you need to be nagged, bullied, educated and constantly reminded that as a woman, you need an owner or you have failed/are a threat to society.
SOme people like heteromonogamy. Bully for them. I like morris dancing but don't insist that everyone else learns how to do it.

Saf: Yes (have ranted on about it on other threads) - whereabouts are you based?

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Excellent thread. Yes! "Relationships" are the new embroidery.
Embroidery was another useless piece of time-wasting invented to make sure women's hands were busy and mind's occupied so they couldn't get down to doing other things, such as planning revolutions or getting on with their lives.
But at least with embroidery, you had an end product that you could most likely sell.
Don't even get that with all the emotional and physical energy you put into "relationships"

SaF, I think it's really interesting that your child's father was interested in your baby as long as it involved having a relationship with you (and most probably access to your body!), but when that was off the table, he lost interest.
It astonishes me the amount of men who suddenly forget about the kids from their first marriage once they've married another woman and had another baby with her.
I do really believe that for men, having access to sex with the mother of the children, is a huge part of their ability to love said children. Not all men, no, but it happens more frequently with men than women.
It's a very rare woman who suddenly forgets about her first child once she meets another man in the same way that men do. SO rare it's practically non-existent.

"Embroidery was another useless piece of time-wasting invented to make sure women's hands were busy and mind's occupied so they couldn't get down to doing other things, such as planning revolutions or getting on with their lives." How true