Heteromonogamy is really just another way to waste women's time, isn't it?

[solidgoldbrass]

All those books, articles, courses on how to Find The One, Make Him Commit, Keep It Exciting - keeping women occupied with the Perfect Relationship means they don't have time to do anything interesting with their lives.

[HerBeX]

[ThePosieParker]

Well I'll be telling my children that they need to find decent people to be parents with and doing it together, not at the expense of their own happiness or mental health. When they decide to be parents it is with the condition that that child has a right to a relationship with both of it's parents, when it's best for the child. IE not adoption or if one parent is dreadful, this will be a rule for sons and daughter. Bad parents are not only men.

The obsession that women are the governors of men's behaviour is not new is it, it's just more media friendly now.

In addition I think it's quite foolish to think the way our society is set up so that women stay at home and men are expected, almost without consultation to provide, is not going to have an effect on their relationship with their children. We cannot change one thing without another., Not to mention the biology of our connection with our children.

[Himalaya]

SGB - fair enough I agree. I've always fancied learning Morris Dancing, one day.... ;-)

[HandDivedScallopsrgreat]

Meant to also say I agree with you sakura on your other points.

[HandDivedScallopsrgreat]

"Embroidery was another useless piece of time-wasting invented to make sure women's hands were busy and mind's occupied so they couldn't get down to doing other things, such as planning revolutions or getting on with their lives." How true

[sakura]

SaF, I think it's really interesting that your child's father was interested in your baby as long as it involved having a relationship with you (and most probably access to your body!), but when that was off the table, he lost interest.
It astonishes me the amount of men who suddenly forget about the kids from their first marriage once they've married another woman and had another baby with her.
I do really believe that for men, having access to sex with the mother of the children, is a huge part of their ability to love said children. Not all men, no, but it happens more frequently with men than women.
It's a very rare woman who suddenly forgets about her first child once she meets another man in the same way that men do. SO rare it's practically non-existent.

[sakura]

Excellent thread. Yes! "Relationships" are the new embroidery.
Embroidery was another useless piece of time-wasting invented to make sure women's hands were busy and mind's occupied so they couldn't get down to doing other things, such as planning revolutions or getting on with their lives.
But at least with embroidery, you had an end product that you could most likely sell.
Don't even get that with all the emotional and physical energy you put into "relationships"

[kickassangel]

.

[solidgoldbrass]

Saf: Yes (have ranted on about it on other threads) - whereabouts are you based?

[solidgoldbrass]

Himalaya, OK perhaps I should have emphasised that it's the cult of heteromonogamy that is a waste of women's time, the idea that if you are not pursuing heteromonogamy you need to be nagged, bullied, educated and constantly reminded that as a woman, you need an owner or you have failed/are a threat to society.
SOme people like heteromonogamy. Bully for them. I like morris dancing but don't insist that everyone else learns how to do it.

[Himalaya]

SAF - I am sorry, I didn't in any way mean to imply there is anything wrong with your family. 

This stuff is very personal...we can't really  talk about general principles in an abstract way because everyone has a family. I read the OP, and Cutofftheirtails dismissal of 'heteromonogamy as a waste of time' as saying my relationship with my DH (my mum my grandma, women I know with good relationships etc..) are all wasting their time.

I think in these kinds of discussions we tend to be pushed to extremes. ( you ask Should abortions be mandatory for unmarried mothers ? Of course not. WTF??)

A lot of societal pressure is from parents to children. I'm not thinking about forcing anyone to do anything, but more about what I tell my children (and more broadly what we all tell our children).

I tell them that there are all different kinds of families, what is important is people that respect each other. I won't tell them 'you must get married' but I will tell them that children should be planned between two people who like and respect each other and who are both willing to make a sacrifices and compromises involved (and that contraception isn't 100% effective). 

Having children involves sacrifice in terms of time and freedom to 'do something more interesting' go and run the country, be the CEO etc..If the only alternatives that we have are women doing more than 50% of the work as wives in traditional marriages or as single mothers, I think either option is quite unsatisfactory.

[TheFrozenMBJ]

Sorry, that was meant to read abhorrent and not uncommon

[TheFrozenMBJ]

sAf is right. It is the men's responsibility to be fathers. Only they can choose to partake in their children's lives. It is not up to the mother's to force them.

I am astounded at the number of my mother's acquaintances who's husbands left them for younger women after years or marriage and have essentially cut their children out of their lives . The relationship failed, and that is a pity but to then choose to have minimal contact with your children, not share in the financial responsibility I'd abhorrent and uncommon.

[solidgoldbrass]

It's also male behaviour at fault when the couple decide that they want to have a baby and the man subsequently realises that actually he wasn't prepared for it, wasn't prepared to give up or reduce his social life and hobbies for a little while, and promptly has an affair. Of course, let's not forget the men who mistreat their partners while reminding them constantly that it's wrong for a woman to be single especially if she's a mother, so women should put up and shut up when it comes to crappy men For THe Sake Of The Children.

[Hagocrat]

I agree with SAF's points.

It is not 'defeatist' to describe the reality of what happens in people's lives. How can we push for change (i.e. feminism!) unless we confront the truth of what is actually happening? To call it 'defeatist' sounds a lot like those people who complain that feminists have a 'victim mentality', as if we can make things change through wishful thinking. We can't.

[Himalaya]

SAF - I see where you are coming from, I dont think there should be increasing pressure on women to get and stay married, but the idea of different kinds of (legal and social) contracts other than marriage I think is good, and different ways of thinking about roles in marriage (other than the 1950s one..).

It seems to me to defeatist to say that unplanned pregnancies will always happen and most women will get absolutely no control over whether their children's 'father's' are involved or not.

We have to the tools - contraception, negotiation between adults and formal and informal contracts for this to happen less, I don't think women should have to accept 'no control'. To just throw hands up in the air and say, that's the way things are seems to be the opposite of building social pressure for men to be decent to the women they sleep with and the children they father.

I agree that life happens, no one can plan everything. But just as I tell my DSs not to cross the road with out looking both ways, I will also tell them not to have sex without contraception unless they are TTC (...and have thought seriously together about what that means as a commitment). I don't think it is a question of 'sticking to the script' but making good decisions at the time.

[Himalaya]

SAF - your thought process about how to best have another child makes sense.

It feels quite different to Shecutofhertail's thought experiment about a woman choosing different ways to have children at different phases in her life - some with the dad involved with their kid, others with the dad emotionally involved with them and the kid, others not knowing their dad at all. That 'pick and mix' principle seems like a bad idea for family harmony...