Separatist Feminism

[VictorGollancz]

Ok, I really am really very late for work at this point but I thought it might be nice to have a space in which we can discuss separatist feminism. I've read a lot of advocates of it, and even incorporate some elements of it into my own life - I prefer not to live with men, for example - but I don't practise it totally and I can't find any examples of any separatist communes.

Does anyone know anything more about it? Does anyone live in a separatist way?

Surprisingly good Wiki link here

This is just the sort of thing that makes people not engage with feminism.

I'm on my phone right now but PC later when I will reply.

Why, Crapola?

I have to say - it's not unique to feminism for single-sex groups to retire from society, not at all. The reasons behind these groups doing it sound as if they're important to those people, even if you or I might not want to do it or might want to disagree. I don't see how you can say they discredit feminism.

I think its interesting but it could never happen on a widescale nor do I think it would be desirable for it to do so. Seperatism like this leads to polarisation and historically whenever that has happened it generally hasn't ended well.

Some men rape, doesn't make all men rapists does it? Anon talks about men not some men, I think that is due to trauma and not good reasoning. As a mother of sons I am offended on their behalf....some messed up notion that ALL hetrosexual men are to be avoided.

it's not for me at all.
but i read an interesting book about a woman who sought out silence after her children left home.. she looked to live alone and not interact with anybody much (though she loved her children). it was a 'retreat' of sorts i guess...
i also know a lot of people who have spent time at buddhist and christian retreats and communities.
i think the bit that i am less sure about is doing this with children in-tow.. i can see it being very easy with infants.. but in that stage between infant-hood and adult-hood, i am not sure about how the children fit in..

Okay the other round in SA then, if we are going to be picky.

hang on-what on earth are you talking about Crapola-
ive said SOME men and when have i said that ALL hetrosexuel men?

men tend to not like my beuitiful effeminate sons-so they cant fuck off anyway!
men find me a challenge[or not like me-im not wommanly enough]-so they can fuck off anyway!
im very aware that there is men that would like my effeminate sons for perverted reasons-they can fuck off[they would leave with theyre bollocks missing]
Anon.

What I find offensive is this sweeping notion of 'men'. There are people that would wish you harm, I'm sure but this is not limited to men. I find the whole idea that you refuse to be called Ms or whatever worth fighting for and going to court, seems you enjoy the struggle and fight. What's wrong with being female ffs? I'm sorry that you've been chased by 3 dogs and gang raped, but that sounds as if you were living somewhere truly horrific.....not that men are evil. Scottish Mummy often makes the point that women are not one homogeneous mass, men should be afforded the same. I've met many decent feminist men in my life and are raising my sons the same.

Look, separatism simply doesn't appeal to large numbers of women in the first place. So why do people get so squawky if a few women want to refuse all contact with men? I find the hatred and fear of separatism more peculiar than separatism itself: it seems that some people really can't handle the idea of any women not being available to men, for domestic service, breeding stock or sex.

It's the head tilting 'hmm that's interesting' that annoys me, the 'I understand your prejudice' crap here that stinks of hypocrisy and the linking it to feminism. It's not remotely feminist, it's women only.

How can you say it is 'sweeping' when she has said 'men tend' and 'men find me'?

If I had an awful experience in France on holiday and then refused ever to live in France, would you think was xenophonic? Or would you just accept that I might choose to avoid the trauma, the flashbacks, the upset, by going on holiday in Spain?

(Dunno if that parallal is too simple).

What if I said Butch Lesbians tend to be fat? Is that okay? Or Asian women tend to be ugly? Or Black boys tend to do poorly at school?

Bad experiences can make us prejudice, but at least admit it's prejudice.

yes-a lot of men do not like my sons[or me for that matter]
this is not a sweeping statement-it is a fact.
no i do not enjoy the fight or struggle at all-had society been more understanding ect-i wouldnt be fighting and struggling-hence me fighting and struggling.
there is nothing wrong with being female-im very proud to be a woman but as a butch woman-i have problems-hence me fighting.
no-i wasnt gang raped-i was threatened with this.
yes-not all men are evil-im not worried about the decent ones-im worried about the rest.

Crapola I am just shocked at most of this thread, I have 3 sons.

Is it possible, as a woman, do discuss feminist ideas without falling back on the line, 'I have a son/sons,' in order to dismiss a concept? Having sons doesn't surely mean that you need to defend them against feminist concepts? Feminism isn't the enemy of your sons. Spearatism isn't the enemy of your sons. Noone is forcing you to leave your sons and live in a separatist community. A concept is being discussed.

And Some men rape, doesn't make all men rapists does it? - that line often seems to go hand in hand the 'my sons' sentiment. What you're expressing here is exactly why some women have favoured separatism - you can't discuss an idea without feeling the need to defend men. It's a good example of the extent to which some women prioritise male well-being over women.

Oh, and I'm lucky enough to have a lovely father and male partner, nephews and even some male friends but I can still respect other people's experiences that have been more negative and see the broader picture about the patriarchy that blackcurrents outlines. It's not one or the other, you can love your male family members and still see how society works to disempower women to male advantage (which impacts on out male family members, too of course).

You see I never say I'm beautiful, slight or whatever. I'm a woman, more importantly I'm a mother.

No, of course it wouldn't be ok. But it wouldn't be a sweeping statement either. You were making out that anon was generalizing when in fact she is trying very hard to explain that these issues are personal ones. To the point in fact where it seems she's blaming herself - doesn't that upset you?

Agree with SGB. And the furore if you wish to be apart from men or deny them your appearnce. Sheesh.
I make an effort to find female plumbers etc. Then i can avoid the 'awright darling' casual sexism crap.

For me it is not possible to sit like a nodding dog forgetting that I have three sons, they are very important to me. I really don't want to say 'what about the menz' when we are discussing feminism, this is about all of us. I think feminism can have a very real, practical and positive affect on all of us, not just women. But theory is rubbish if it has no practical application in real life, what's the point? Feminism is a movement not a library.

When people make statements about men I think they should be true. Seems to me men are the only group that can be attacked like this......

But why are you so defensive? Noone is attacking your sons. This is a political debate in which someone has spoken about their personal experience as part of the discussion, which you seem to take as an attack on your own sons. Most people here are mothers - that may be a factor in why we want to engage in debate about how to make society better.