Separatist Feminism

[VictorGollancz]

Ok, I really am really very late for work at this point but I thought it might be nice to have a space in which we can discuss separatist feminism. I've read a lot of advocates of it, and even incorporate some elements of it into my own life - I prefer not to live with men, for example - but I don't practise it totally and I can't find any examples of any separatist communes.

Does anyone know anything more about it? Does anyone live in a separatist way?

Surprisingly good Wiki link here

I was attempting to point out that had you been talking about Black instead of men it would be racist and wrong. Living with women only is much more different than living away from men. You also make sweeping insults about men, I suggest you need to resolve your prejudices. This is not feminism, it's misandry. (loathe that term but this is thecfirst time I have felt like using it)

where have i spoke about black instead of men?
where have i made sweeping insults about men?
youve lost me Crapola-please explain!

I don't think it's a fair comparison, Crapola, men are hardly (as a group) a persecuted minority who are subject to institutional discrimination

sorry Crapola-ignore the first question-i misread you!

Mmm CDV the problem with your example is that you have flipped the power hierarchy.

Your example of ' I as a white person now live more peacefully away from black people' is directly comparable to 'I as a man perfer male only spaces as there is less hassle.. mmm say like gentlemans clubs, lap dancing clubs or golfing- male only -clubs.

It is completely different for a black person in a place in SA to say, that I feel unsafe in the company in the white people (and the possiblility for example, they have a dog trained to attack black people only). Which is equivalent to a woman who has been subjected to violence and aggression, by men (such as anon), saying I do not feel safe to be around men and live away from them.

So a black person can't be racist?

And I think someone that is prejudice for whatever reason is still prejudiced. What message is she sending her sons?

Counselling is in order as opposed to avoidance. Nothing interesting about feminist separatists, for me. A destructive part of the movement.

what a ridicculas thing to say Crapola-"councelling is in order as oppossed to avoidence"!!
councelling isnt going to stop societys violence and hatred is it!

As racism is an institutional and structual phenoma (as opposed to prejudice ) that can be enacted on individual levels - it is fairly difficult for many black people to be in such a position of power to exert true racism against anyone.

How does counselling prevent one from having a pit bull unleashed on them in the future?

I would find nothing racist in the decision of a group of black South Africans to withdraw from a society in which they have been violently persecuted. Why should the onus to make everything a-ok be placed on those who have been disempowered the most?

I would like to reiterate that, though motherinferior has direct experience of feminist separatists who do have a fear and a dislike of men (so it obviously exists), other posters have suggested that their own separatist leanings have nothing to do with fear of men and everything to do with wanting to feel safe, secure, and strong. The theoretical side certainly supports this, and positions separatism as a way of life that focuses on support of women, rather than fear of men. There are a range of reasons for separatism - let's not focus on only the negative.

Incidentally, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but there are several posts in here that suggest that posters with separatist inclinations or lifestyles have something mentally wrong with them or have been damaged in some way. I don't feel that such suggestions are either accurate or fair.

Reading about these separatist communities, though, they did not really seem to be very interested in 'sending messages' - they were getting away for society, rather than trying to convince society to be like them.

I would imagine a child brought up in that sort of community (and they're not very big, by the sound, are they? Only just bigger than a co-incidental group of all-female households might be) would simply accept it as the norm until they were quite old, with minor questions. I don't see how a three-year-old boy whose mum used to visit these places then stopped would be old enough to conclude 'oh, it's my fault, I am a Bad Man'.

Btw, while I agree with VG it seems rude/sneery to say that women in these communities must be 'damaged' and need therapy ... if they did need therapy, who's to say they're not getting it in this context?

LRD: Monique Wittig makes heterosexuality a condition of being a 'woman' - so women who don't partake in heterosexual life are 'un-woman' (in Wittig's context, this is a powerful, strong, desireable thing to be). We could easily flip that around and make participation in patriarchy a condition of being a 'man'. So male children raised in such conditions would always be male, but would not necessarily grow up to be 'men'. If that makes sense.

That's interesting VG. I need to think about it for a bit!

It is interesting how horrifying some people find the idea of women living without men. Why should a woman have to interact with men when she'd rather not?
Actually, reading the thread I suppose some people might call me a separatist . I don't live with a male partner and never have done. I socialise a lot with women-only groups (well, my weekly morris class is all women and I often go out for drinks/a meal with female friends only).
However I have a 6 year old DS who I am not about to reject or abandon, so I'm probably out of the game.

Agree SCGB, it's interesting. I could never be a separatist but I think the ida of women-only communities is really exciting and I would love to be able to visit one and talk to people who lived that way about it.

Reading the political lesbianism link from earlier I think I may be missing something. She says that she was already a lesbian before becoming interested in feminism so isn't that different? She's not a lesbian because of her politics, she was born a lesbian, surely?

Given the prejudice evident in anon's post about how men may want to hurt her effeminate sons is a skewed way of looking at things. Nothing wrong with choosing to live with 'people of certain beliefs/genitals' but if the motive is to avoid others then it's destructive and prejudiced. Besides unless these women only eat what they grow, shit in the woods it is likely they benefit from mainstream society.

Craploa, why shouldn't people avoid others? no one should be forced into interactions they don;t want. The rich do their best to avoid the poor, locking themselves away in gated communities and all that - this is probably less ethical than separatist feminism.

how can it be a scewed way of looking at it-its a fact that some men will hurt effeminate/gay men/boys!

Any child that could only 'visit' his mother until he was three probably wouldn't care that the reason he was abandoned is because he's male......no m, no deep scars there.

I am just shocked at most of this thread, I have 3 sons.

Did I read it wrong? I thought it was the mum and son both visiting the place, then they stopped after he was three?

Might it be helpful to remind ourselves of some 101 stuff here? I go back to this site again and again, to hone and refine what I'm thinking, and it might be clarifying for this debate, specially since female separatism has been compared to white supremacy.

"What is sexism?"

Sexism is a 'matter of opinion''

"Aren't feminists just sexist against men?"

I find the middle link particularly helpful, and recite it to people a lot (they love it!) "Institutionalized misogyny, like any endemic prejudice (racism, homophobia, ageism, ableism, sizism, etc.) should be viewed as a system, with rules and laws governing its existence?although, by virtue of cultural indoctrination, they generally aren't obvious unless one makes an effort to see them.

The patriarchy is very like the Matrix, in that it is a false construct laid over the top of a reality, that makes things look very different. Viewing the same thing while fully and uncritically socialized into the patriarchy and while cognizant of its falsity creates two very different pictures."

Female separatism is comparable to black people seeking safe spaces away from white people, not to white supremacist separatists. This is because sexism is predjudice + systematic oppression. Sexism/discrimination can be an an individual act, but the systematizing of it over thousands of years = patriarchy.

Crapola, no one is going to force you to abandon your sons. A lot of the women who want to live in separatist establishments don't have sons - or fathers, or brothers. What's it to you how they choose to live?
I must admit that my only real issue with separatism is the treatment of sons as I have one too hence no separatis commune for me, thanks. However, I do think that women who want to live away from men (and are not abandoning sons) have every right to do so. WRT mothers of sons, I think that, as with any other major project that's going to take you away from your DC, it's better to wait until they are adults and can understand, to leave them.

CDV what exactly shocks you on this thread? Most mothers on this thread have sons, none have suggested anything close to living away from them or not doing what is best to raise and protect them...

I have seen a fairly gentle discussion about seperatism may involve and what that may look like - i know lots of men who actively avoid spending much time with women or as SCGB says even more rich people who avoid spending time with poor people

The 'pure' seperatism has been acknowledged as fairly theoretical - though I would personally support anyone to structure their life as they want.