Resisteing feminity 2

[garlicbutter]

sethstarkaddersmackerel Wed 16-Mar-11 13:39:12

I was thought-provoked by the 'I'm a feminist but....' thread, particularly Dittany's posts, in which she talked about women who choose not to 'perform femininity'.

I posted on the other thread that I hugely object to all that bikini-line business but do still shave my legs. Am not sure why I do this, so I think I'm going to stop and see how it feels. It felt like a major issue when I was 20 or so but I actually suspect not shaving them now would make me feel more, rather than less, confident.

So I wondered if anyone else was thinking about giving up any beauty practices or other elements of compulsory femininity and would like to do it together and see how it feels.

this is not a competition - if you decide after a day you hate it and can't live without it, fine, but it would be really interesting to hear about, and I think it could advance our understanding of how this all works.

anyone else in?

btw, I am in a vile mood today so if anyone wants to come along to the thread and tell us we are just falling into the trap of thinking all feminists have to have hairy legs, or that actually they wax everything and are a still better feminist than meeeee, I will tell them to fuck off because if you don't 'get' this I can't be bothered explaining, either you get it or you don't smile

alex - I agree about ankles, they are great, they keep your feet on.

Bigmouth - I found that a very interesting post. My mother was also not particularly interested in appearance, though actually I think she was pretty and knew it, she just didn't consider it important. As I teenager I was clueless about clothes and it made me feel very insecure and different from everyone else, and when I finally discovered Susannah and Trinny ('What Not To Wear', especially the books) it was incredibly liberating to realise that actually all this clothes business was pretty easy, and I found myself enjoying it for the first time in my life - being totally certain about what shapes and colours suited me meant I suddenly felt free to have fun with clothes and stand out more. So in many respects I can relate to your journey.

a big part of this thread, IMO, is about separating out the fun from the burdensome.

it's a number 9 SaF - the second longest setting on the clippers.

bigmouth - I think there is a happy medium my mum always looks lovely and dresses feminine but she doesnt shave her legs, or spend ages on make up (eg feels like she needs loads on in order to go out), she eats what she likes but in moderation so no food issues etc.

I enjoy dressing up for going out and I think I always look nice but I think its only bad when its obsessional (like lots of women I know) eg they wouldnt dream of going out without full face on, counting calories on everything, cant be seen without tan/nails etc. Its about being happy in what you look like all the time regardless of if you are doing an outdoor activity or going to a party. I think thats one of the greatest gifts my mother has taught me. She didnt teach it me by doing anything just by being herself and hby being a strong confident person.

I do know what you mean swallowed - as I know I have 'god I am hideous' days and I have gained weight in my 30's but I honestly did feel less confident and more hideous in my teens and early twenties than I do now - even though I look at pictures of myself then and cannot understand it. As I was perfectly acceptable looking - I dressed in a way that got commented on in the street 'oi Lesbian!' was a favourite so I became quite defiant. Certainly didn't dress in a way that pleased men (it wasn't 'oi lipstick lesbian' that is).

While now I might go out for the night feeling good then look at the pictures (bloody hate facebook) and think christ what do I look like, but at the same time not really care as I have much more confidence in my self worth... hope that makes sense. I haven't classic beauty, my hair is greying, I am getting wrinkles round my eyes, I have the beginnings of varicose veins and my feet are large and v wide I am cool with that and want my daughters to have enough confidence to overcome insecurity themselves hopefully sooner than I did. Especially dd1 as it is becoming clear she is going to be a (probably)6ft amazonian type which can be hard when the pinnacle of beauty is slender and graceful but she will find her way.

sAf - I just read your post again. It's so sad that you should feel shame (I mean 'you' in the sense of 'one', not just you specifically). Why should women feel ashamed? What's wrong with us that we should be made to feel that way?

The other day when that comment was made about dyeing my hair, I just tried to shrug it off (my usual response), but now I'm angry. I'm angry because it's attitudes like that which help to perpetuate the problem. Comments like that can make women feel ashamed of their appearance and embarassed about themselves, when in fact there's nothing wrong with them. I started thinking about it like this after reading your post - if I had been less confident in myself (and I always look in the mirror and think Wow! Aren't I gorgeous!) that could have really affected me, especially as it is the 3rd time hair dyeing has been mentioned to me, and expecially in conjunction with the reference to my daughter.

How dare people feel they can comment on our appearance in this way! How dare they undermine our confidence, our feeling of self worth! How dare they judge us for such trivial matters as the colour of our hair! So what if we put on a little bit of weight (and I'm sure you are not gross sAf), surely that's just a normal part of life! From now on I small make a point of challenging such comments more robustly. Time to kick this attitude down!

The annoying thing with the hairdying comment is it would never be said to a man. I am grey (very), it is hereditary (thanks dad), and whilst I have never had the you must dye it comments, I have been told I am 'brave' for not dying it. Brave ffs, I am not battling cancer, or in a warzone, I just don't dye my hair! (Can't be arsed).

SaF - I know what you mean about makeup and feeling a fraud - I did and still do so don't wear it. Similarly high heels, I feel like I have raided my mums closet.

I like the getting angry!

Blackduck - the more I think about it, the angrier I get!

a question for any of you who have used anti-ageing products. Do they actually do anything? Or is it just an expensive placebo? I'm just curious., having never bothered with them myself.

Can I add another dimension to this thread? I really hate crappy women's magazines and haven't bought them in years, since I twigged that they contain little in the way of even vaguely interesting content. If I buy a magazine now I buy Private Eye or New Scientist. I hate the way that magazines are gendered so Stuff or T3 have a half naked woman on the front to appeal to men and magazines like Wired, which appeal to me, are displayed in 'men's lifestyle'.

I may be doing badly on the physical resistance to notions of feminity (I am ashamed to say) but I have resisted (it's not hard) buying into the worlds of glossy magazines and fashion for years.

I like to think that I'm doing my own little bit to resist patronising and content lite crap aimed at women with this!

I've been lurking with interest and admiration and would like to say thank you as it's helping me love my body more. I have also decided to avoid anti aging products as I will still age and it's not a bad thing. I saw a women at a biker rally on saturday and one of her patches said " Perfect as I am" and my first thought was every women should have one, especially on this thread! As a carry on does anyone else think less mainstream tribes/ lifestyles have less narrowly defined ideals of beauty.

On the makeup fraud front glad to know I am not the only one , I used to use it as dressing up ie/ turquoise sparkly eyeliner under bottom lashes and nowt else, but have been falling into habit of being sutble to " enchance" when I get round to it. Mainly because I thought I was too old to be playful, which now I think about it stems from a make over several years ago where the lovely lady gave me a list of about 20 products I needed, primer foundation, 2 fucking 2 types of concealer, highlighter, blusher all the normal eye and lip stuff. At the time I recognised she was just trying to sell me stuff and only got blusher, but it must have stuck with me on some level and is definately an example of how undermining the beauty industry can be cause I think and it's one of the random compliments I get I've got lovely skin, and foundation is never pale enough or makes my freckles look wierd

I went to a posh restaurant without make-up the other week.
Had not planned or intended it, just that when I was getting changed I decided I looked better and more 'me' without it.
I must have been the only woman in the whole place without it.
What was amazing was that I didn't feel like I wished I had it on. I would never have said a couple of months ago that I was going to give up make-up; I even wore it to MWR.
it's amazing how easy this stuff is when the moment is right, isn't it?

So I'm not really on board with this project atm but I'm watching with interest. Have rather messed up feelings wrt to body/face (acne isshoos) etc. Am hoping to address said issues in the not too distant future.

I am trying to work out where I want to draw my lines wrt to "grooming/femininity".

Just occurred to me that I & DH both had cosmetic dentistry when we were children.

I am working on a model in my mind where pysical characteristics are on a bell curve and people at the outlying reaches normally want to get into the middle of the bell curve - eg I had really bad acne so my parents got treatment for me - which normalised me.

My issue is that the parameters for the 'normal' shift if eg significant %ages of women start having botox etc.

Couple of random thoughts which I am sure have been spawned by this thread and its predecessor:

DS playing with small plastic farm animals - "is this a boy or a girl Mummy?"

Me - "not sure DS they are pretty similar no -obvious genitals o show--"

Me (to myself, penny dropping) pretty similar - just like men and women - but we as humans accentuate the differences through clothing/hair/behaviour...

Plus - we don't have our genitals on show (day to day!)

Then a separate thought came to me - if men were more 'natural' like our ancestors then they would have full very very hairy beards! And the women no make up - but from a quick glance the beard thing would be a dead give away. So actually men having normalised the removal of facial hair have shifted the goal posts?

oh that's really interesting Forkful. I like your theory about beards.
what about the Victorians though - they were into big beards but women still did the rest of it - not make-up perhaps but the clothes were very extreme on the way they created difference.

what I have found re drawing a line, is that my line has shifted as a result of the experiment. I think the first time you actively decide not to do something you could easily do to make yourself look 'better', it breaks the spell to some extent and you realise you don't need to do a lot of the stuff you are doing. So I never meant to give up make-up (I have bad skin) but it seems to have happened.

IIRC, there's a devotee of nude beaches here. You could hint around for an invitation.