Resisteing feminity 2

[garlicbutter]

sethstarkaddersmackerel Wed 16-Mar-11 13:39:12

I was thought-provoked by the 'I'm a feminist but....' thread, particularly Dittany's posts, in which she talked about women who choose not to 'perform femininity'.

I posted on the other thread that I hugely object to all that bikini-line business but do still shave my legs. Am not sure why I do this, so I think I'm going to stop and see how it feels. It felt like a major issue when I was 20 or so but I actually suspect not shaving them now would make me feel more, rather than less, confident.

So I wondered if anyone else was thinking about giving up any beauty practices or other elements of compulsory femininity and would like to do it together and see how it feels.

this is not a competition - if you decide after a day you hate it and can't live without it, fine, but it would be really interesting to hear about, and I think it could advance our understanding of how this all works.

anyone else in?

btw, I am in a vile mood today so if anyone wants to come along to the thread and tell us we are just falling into the trap of thinking all feminists have to have hairy legs, or that actually they wax everything and are a still better feminist than meeeee, I will tell them to fuck off because if you don't 'get' this I can't be bothered explaining, either you get it or you don't smile

oh well done SaF! Good luck.

I can see the connection - thinking more about your inside than your outside, your actual state of health as opposed to how you look.
The opposite would be women who smoke to help themselves avoid eating, like a lot of models supposedly do.

I read some of the original thread and I do find this so interesting - trying to untangle my own feelings on this and reading how others feel.

So much collective time and energy is wasted due to the pressures to "perform" femininity, and discomfort/pain endured - from the rags and rollers my grandmothers wore to bed, to the normalisation of plastic surgery today.

(I do see this being gradually extended to men now too, as making people feel they aren't good enough is such a great marketing tool! but enough about teh menz.)

I'd agree that removal of body hair, makeup and the elaborate colouring and dressing of hair are entirely unnecessary. However my dad is a bit of a dandy and I cannot shake off a belief that cleanliness and a certain level of neatness are essential. He would never leave the house unless he had washed, cleaned his teeth and combed his hair, and he's passed that on to me. My mum rarely wore makeup when I was a child and didn't colour or spend lots of time styling her hair, but she too was always clean, if not quite as anal about some of the details of grooming as me or my dad (mum will wear sandals with chipped old nail varnish, dry skin on show - I NEVER would, I just wouldn't! Mind you she wouldn't wear a skirt with hairy legs, but I would.)

I notice things like nails - often I meet people who are beautifully dressed, hair styled and made up to perfection, but they have dirty nails or shoes that haven't been heeled. I am rarely beautifully dressed and I have "Irish" hair but I would be mortified if I had dirty nails and wouldn't wear a pair of shoes that needed cobbling.

My body hair is fair and fine textured so perhaps that is why I have never felt obliged to remove it, though from the age of about 12 I have enjoyed stroking my newly shaved/waxed legs. I feel quite sexy with underarm hair, I think that's because I associate it with being intellectual and European! Bikini area, well I did used to get Brazilian waxes and I found the lack of hair underneath very comfortable, especially during my periods (am a mooncup devotee and the combination of using the cup and having very little pubic hair made periods much less of a trial) but after the first time I asked for the front to be left alone, I felt less feminine without the "triangle".

I love makeup, clothes and experimenting with hair, but I usually just brush my hair and clip it out of my eyes and wear jeans and a top with flat shoes or ugg boots. I wear mascara most days but I certainly don't mind being seen without it. For work I wear more makeup (mascara, kohl, powder, blush, tinted lip balm) and take more care with my hair, but we are expected to look "smart". Also I have always looked young for my age and feel that makeup makes me look a bit more mature.

I can't believe I've rambled on for so long and not got to the weight thing yet! jayzus.

If anybody wants to critique my thinking on this please feel free, I only have a couple of friends who are feminists and don't often get to discuss this stuff.

'I feel quite sexy with underarm hair, I think that's because I associate it with being intellectual and European! '

I am going to post about weight/body image now and then I will stop filling up the thread!

I find the increasingly narrow perameters of what is an acceptable body shape for a woman exceedingly depressing - very low body fat with large breasts, a curve to the hips and a rounded bottom is a rare type, but increasingly seems to be the only one held up as desirable. I also get depressed by the "real women"/"naturally thin" crap that I hear on an almost daily basis.

You are still a "real woman" if you have very small breasts and/or are very slim.
Beautiful women are not necessarily "thick", "bitches" or vacuous.
You cannot believe that "some people are just naturally thin" if you will not also accept that some are naturally chubby! If we all vary in height and shape then why would we not vary in muscle mass and body fat levels? Food and exercise obviously plays a part but it is NOT the case that everyone would be the same size if they ate the same food and did the same exercise.

Exercise is a big problem for women. We are only encouraged to do it to stay/become slim. I endure aerobics DVDs alone in the front room to try and keep my weight down. My DP plays football and cricket with his friends for fun.
I did enjoy team sports at school but as an adult cannot find anywhere to play them or anyone to play them with. The teams that are around play at a much higher standard than I ever could, I just want to run around and have a laugh.
The craze for Zumba seems like it may be a bit more positive, I know several women who go and they really enjoy the classes. They are all "larger" ladies too.

I have done a lot of reading around size acceptance. I believe wholeheartedly that your weight says nothing about your personality or morality. I do not care how thin or fat you are. If I go somewhere I don't know anyone I will choose to approach someone who looks friendly or like-minded, whether they be size 6 or size 30.

HOWEVER I cannot make this apply to myself. I am trying and have come a long way in the last few years, but I still judge myself by standards I would not apply to anyone else. I am 5'3" and wear a 12/14. My body fat is too high to be healthy but otherwise there is nothing wrong with me. I can't let go of the belief that I am somehow not good enough because I am not thin. I was bullied relentlessly from 5-16 for being "fat" (I was the chubbiest girl in my class but with the benefit of hindsight I was nothing like fat) and my parents put me on diets from the age of 8, perhaps this is why I can't quite shake this nonsense. I want to try for my DD's sake, I would hate for her to grow up with the same misery I did.

I have posted another thread where I talk about wanting to "transform" myself for a social event. I'm not proud of it but there will be people there who have hurt me in the past and I feel that I need to lose weight to be confident in front of them. It's such bollocks! I hate myself for being so weak really.

Yes, anyway, that'll do pig innit :) If anyone actually read it all have a and a , I'm going to!

sethstarkaddersmackerel - mainly because of Nena and her 99 Red Balloons!

Great post, red :) I agree with everything - especially your should-be-obvious "naturally thin naturally fat" point! It's sad to hear you applymuch harsher rules to yourself than to other people, and I wish I knew of a magical way to help you shake that off instantly!

During my fat & fit phase I was declared obese by my GP, based on BMI. My body fat level at that time was 23%, as measured by the electronic thingy at the gym, and I could have easily beaten the doctor in a fight or a race! But he 'labelled' me and it was difficult to get the treatment I needed. That's a very dangerous prejudice - god knows how many overweight people are under-treated because of it. Celeb trainer Matt Roberts is forever pointing out that his BMI says he's obese! Muscle weighs a hell of a lot more than fat.

I like my tummy - honest! (It's much bigger than yours, ner-ner-ner.) I've got a couple of very flattering dresses in my current size, and rely on them for potentially scary social events :) Here's wishing you similar.

Hello everyone - this is a fascinating thread, brill original idea, and I am watching and reading with interest.
I already don't wear makeup, only wear skirts and dresses when it's very hot, and don't mani/pedi or blow dry my hair unless it's cold. I don't shave my legs all winter long (very long, where I live) but I do think I'd shave them before putting on my first skirt of summer.

That said, this thread has made me think. Last year I was PG through one of the hottest summers on record (live in USA) and went days without shaving legs or whatever, and didn't bloody care. It felt fabulous and - since I was IMMENSELY pg - I felt pretty damn "feminine" too! It's odd - even when I was the size of a house I felt soo powerful "See me create life! ROOAAR!" - and I've been much more confident in and proud of my body since then. Even though I am fat fat fat.

I'm too thin for some of my immediate post-birth clothes, and too fat for my 2- years-ago summer clothes. I had been putting off buying anything and vaguely planning to starve myself back into my stuff, and now I think I might just allow myself a couple of cheap shirts and cardis and a pair of capris that I really, really like. And then take it from there. I like my body, damnit, I'm not going to punish it for anyone. I might lovingly take it to some yoga classes and slowly build up some strength, flexibility, and stamina - but my body's done a lot for me over the years, and it's given me DS, and I refuse to hate how it's changed.

(sorry, that was more musing and rambling than actual coherence. My mother, very caught up in the oldschool 'fat indicates a weak character ruled by gluttony and sloth' mentality, pulled me aside at christmas and hissed that I absolutely had to lose weight because I was enormous and at risk of heart disease and diabetes and did I really want to look like that... I'm an 18 at the moment, a 16 when I just putter along, and a 14 after 6 months of Weight Watchers and doing hard aerobic exercise for 2 hours every day. That experience, (before my wedding - guess what I'd been told by my mother?!) made me realise that actually, my body's "default" shape was probably a 14/16, and was NEVER going to be a 12/14 unless I got really, really ill. And I was ok with that!) My objections to dieting are pretty feminist AND pragmatic - they don't work in the long term, and why should I have to shrink my self to take up less space, because the sight of my flesh offends other eyes? I like being fit and strong, but I refuse to try and look like ANYONE's idea of pretty. HAH!

Ahem. Sorry. Mother v. messed up about food and bodies in general. I'm offering DS solids atm and trying to work out how not to mess him up about food while I'm at it!

blackcurrants you sound like you have your head screwed on, that's where I'm trying to get to.

Thanks for your kind words garlicbutter :)

It's because you haven't met me, SwallowedAfly. I eat like a horse (and very unhealthily at times, as I eat exactly what I please). I have three children and am closer to 40 than 30. I lost all my pregnancy weight and more besides breastfeeding, although I made no conscious effort to do so, and in fact I ate so much cake and chocolate in the first few months I'm amazed I didn't swell up to triple my size!

I don't go to the gym or do any kind of organised exercise, but I do walk everywhere (I don't drive at all and I rarely use public transport). This really is a lot of walking. Since having ds2, I have also been doing physiotherapy with him (he has hypotonia). I put him on a mat and take his body through the exercises. He is only 15 months old, so as yet not too big and heavy for me! That is the extent of my physical exercise, and I have never been on a diet in my life. Yet I am slim. Is it the walking? Or is that cancelled out by my unhealthy eating? Or am I naturally slim? That's what I think.

I wasn't saying that I don't believe some people are "naturally slim" - my mother ate whatever she wanted til she was 40 and never went above 9 stone (at 5'7") and she was not especially active - in fact if she wasn't walking the dog she drove EVERYWHERE!

In fact I was thinking about this recently - I think my metabolism is actually pretty okay, I didn't moderate what I ate at all for three years after discovering the whole "health at every size" thing and I still didn't go over 10st. On the other hand I once did WW religiously for a year in my late teens, went swimming, jogging etc. and I never got below 8.5 stone and wasn't what you'd call slim.

The "set point" theory seems pretty likely to me - you have a weight range of 20-30lb or so, that your appetite will tend to keep you within and you would have to make a big effort to go lower or higher than this range.

Blackcurrants I loved your 11.58 post.
You have got to buy yourself some clothes that fit that you like, though. Only having nice clothes that don't fit has got to be one of the most effective ways to make you feel shit about your body.

swallowedafly I am naturally thin (5 foot 3 7 stone 3). I have mcdonalds every day I work at lunch. I mainly eat fatty foods eg. crispy pancakes, waffles, chicken nuggets, turkey dinosaurs, pizza,breaded mushrooms etc. I never eat salads ever and never have done. That makes up a large proportion of my diet. I buy all the junk from iceland, drink cider lots at the weekend etc. It isnt true that skinny people starve themselves or dont eat fatty foods. I am a mumsnets worse nightmare when it comes to foods I eat My mum is in her 50s and she can eat what she likes and is same as all my family. Its just in your genes. I do move around a lot though eg. constantly I cant sit still even when on the computer!

I have heard all the prejudices about skinny people eg I must not eat, must not eat junk, must make myself sick etc. Its rude and untrue. I think people say very intrusive things to naturally skinny people they would never say to larger people.

I am happy with what I look like now but when I was younger women used to come up to my in the street or just random strangers and say 'you need a good meal', ''do you eat' 'do you make yourself sick' ' you look like you will snap' etc. It doesnt bother me now but it did a bit when I was younger and school aged. Women still do it now if I dont know them well and it doesnt make me feel bad now but I find it really embarassing. Even now I go out of my way to eat in front of people and it probably contributes to my love of junk food. I would never be seen eating a salad else I know some people would comment.

I dont even look unhealithily skinny and have had big boobs for my size since 16. I just have very slim arms and legs. My brother has had all the same comments though in the past and it effected him more as he is a boy and not 'meant' to be slim. He is a little bigger now but he used to wear 3 tops to work and he still only will go out in a jumper now regardless of the heat cause of it.

my body is in all likelihood the worst its ever looked but i'm at my most comfortable and accepting of it i've ever been

Pretty much a yes from me saf! It's not the fattest it's been - that was 10 years ago - but I was younger then so could probably carry it a bit better and it hadn't been bruised and battered by two children by then! I'm 34 too, but still don't wear shorts because of my burger knees :). Bloody hate my knees - they are the one thing I would genuinely still swap. I think pretty much everything else I am happy with or learning to be happier with, but my knees are my weak spot. Does anybody on here genuinely love every little last bit of their body? I do pretty well at loving imperfections what with my fondness for my rogue 3 cheek hairs and learning to love the red angioma on my arm (as mentioned previously), and I can quite happy look at my big slightly saggy boobs and rounded tummy and big bum in the mirror and feel quite proud of my curves, but I would really rather not look at my knees. Sllly, isn't it?

I do frequent naturist beaches though whenever the possibility arises. I tell you what - getting your kit off on a beach is completely liberating and it should be tried. Not only do you get to feel the warm air on your bits, which is divine, but you see other naked people and realise that a) nobody has a perfect body and b) it doesn't really bother you or them. And naturist beaches are often some of the best we have in this country - viz Studland in Dorset and Holkham in Norfolk. Bliss!

I havent got body dysmorphia my legs are actually really, really teeny. Even whilst pregnant they about as skinny as a 13 year olds, if not smaller. I like them now but I just used to hate everyone drawing attention to it when I was younger as I couldnt really help it. I never used to think about whether someone was small or large or their weight but it was all some people ever talked about at school so when they talked about me I used to find it really annoying. I realised when I left school tht when people do it its probably to do with their own issues with food/weight but back then I didnt really see it like that.

My husband had to fill his pockets with bags of pennies when he joined the forces as they told him he wasnt the right weight so he had to fill up with those bags of pennies in his trackies to get in! Its weird I suppose cause I was a girl the man said I was underweight but they just allowed me to join anyway.

I think with the skinny thing its much worse for a man not to be able to put on weight as I have known quite a few men that feel they 'should' be a lot bigger when to me it never really mattered and some people go for bigger/smaller bodied men. I find slim build men really attractive but I have friends that love the big body builder type and all types in between. If women have all types of preferences in men, then I am sure men are the same to women. Also you always notice things on yourself others dont. My husband said to me months after we first got together when I slept with you I was embarrassed about my body being too small, skinny and about other little imperfections etc and I think how silly because I didnt notice or even register any of the things he pointed out. The same goes for the other way round I would say if a man cares about you.

This thread is so interesting. If I'm really honest, I think I've been guilty in the past of judging women on how they look on occasion, but since I've been looking more into feminism I've been examining my own prejudices a lot more carefully. This thread takes it a little further for me - I wish I could be as brave as you lot, I would love to stop shaving everything as it's a dull waste of time that I seem to do purely so my DH will find me more sexually attractive and I won't get judged by other people in the summer. And that's wrong really isn't it? But I'm not there yet - too much of a wuss. Maybe I will get brave if I read a bit more.

Noodle that's awful about people saying things to you about being thin.

interesting about your dh and filling his pockets with pennies for the weighing.

I have always felt the same about different people liking different shapes; most of the time people seem to go out with people who are like them so I always thought you shouldn't be worried as there would be someone like you to get off with no matter what size or shape you are. I'm sure it is not 100% as simple as that but people of all shapes and sizes certainly do seem to find partners.

I once upset a boyfriend by making a comment (which was not meant to be a nasty one) about him being thin - I thought 'thin' was always positive and hadn't realised men could feel sensitive about not being bulky enough. Later on I went out with a man who used to wear three t-shirts to bulk himself up and hated the summer because he was too hot in his three t-shirts (this should be on the other thread really....)

Just to illustrate my point about a double standard, people are posting about themselves or people they know that "can't put on weight", but nobody has appeared on the thread saying "eat more and move less calories in calories out" etc, have they? I can guarantee if someone posted the opposite the fat police would be out in force.

I was once on a thread where someone said she couldn't lose weight while she was breastfeeding and loads of people piled on basically saying she wasn't trying hard enough or insinuating she was lying about her diet and exercise.

I'm not sure where the idea that nobody verbally abuses fat people comes from either...one of my friends is a size 22 and I can assure you that people do feel perfectly free to be fucking vile to her - shouting insults out of passing cars or groups of people oinking/mooing are particular favourites.

I have a friend I've known since preschool who is very very slim and I do understand that she would like to be bigger, and I have heard nasty remarks about her size.

What it comes down to is that women's* bodies are NOT public property, open to comment by the world and his wife, and my understanding is that choosing to "resist femininity" is an attempt to demonstrate that.

*Yes, I know that men can be judged on their appearance too, but generally speaking a man's looks are much less relevant to pretty much every area of his life, and this is a discussion about femininity.

swallowed my mum is actually medium framed, she was a "model" type build, never needed a bra, long slender legs - think it's the legs that made her so light IYSWIM, I have a friend who is only five foot tall and a very toned size 8 but she weighs 9.5 stone! I couldn't believe it but she got on the scales and proved it - she has very "sturdy" muscular legs though (can't wear jeans as they don't go past her knees) and they must weigh a lot.

Bah, I should really preview before I post. That sounds a lot meaner than it was supposed to!

I was trying to reiterate my earlier point about "naturally thin" being an accepted reason for being underweight whereas there is no such equivalent in the popular mind for being a few pounds over.

Why can't we all just be nice to each other, etc [despairs, goes to make a cup of tea]