Resisteing feminity 2

[garlicbutter]

sethstarkaddersmackerel Wed 16-Mar-11 13:39:12

I was thought-provoked by the 'I'm a feminist but....' thread, particularly Dittany's posts, in which she talked about women who choose not to 'perform femininity'.

I posted on the other thread that I hugely object to all that bikini-line business but do still shave my legs. Am not sure why I do this, so I think I'm going to stop and see how it feels. It felt like a major issue when I was 20 or so but I actually suspect not shaving them now would make me feel more, rather than less, confident.

So I wondered if anyone else was thinking about giving up any beauty practices or other elements of compulsory femininity and would like to do it together and see how it feels.

this is not a competition - if you decide after a day you hate it and can't live without it, fine, but it would be really interesting to hear about, and I think it could advance our understanding of how this all works.

anyone else in?

btw, I am in a vile mood today so if anyone wants to come along to the thread and tell us we are just falling into the trap of thinking all feminists have to have hairy legs, or that actually they wax everything and are a still better feminist than meeeee, I will tell them to fuck off because if you don't 'get' this I can't be bothered explaining, either you get it or you don't smile

Engelbert - I HOPE we are still going camping, I am looking forward to it immensely.
am a bit nervous about dh though.... he thinks it will take us 3 hours to get there (which I don't believe but anyway we go to the Lakes and that is that far) and that it will be too windy but I suspect what is basically going on is that he is a bit nervous about doing stuff with my friends. He doesn't mean to be grumpy or unfriendly, but I think he finds it harder than he admits. I have GOT to be firm with him though, because since we were married we have almost always done stuff with his friends instead of mine, and much as I like his friends this can't go on.

Coming back to resisting femininity, I have found 2 main effects on me:

1. a load of guilt has lifted that I didn't even know I had - this feeling that I was not 'making the best of myself' because I wasn't working harder on my appearance.
2. oddly I think I am more vain and secretly smug about the good more patriarchy-compliant bits of my appearance. Don't know how this has happened and I'm not sure I like it. Anyone else finding this too?

lol at 'they've got toes and everything'!!

While searching for something else entirely, I got offered this article on the New York Times website, published a couple of days ago:

www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/fashion/15skin.html?_r=1

It's about showbiz women who've shown a little fur, and what people said about it.

I like the end quote from that article TeiTetua. Should be our motto: ?You know what?s really cool? Wake up every morning, decide what you feel like doing, and do it.? I think that encompasses what we've been talking about isn't it? Do what you feel comfortable with, not what anybody else is comfortable with you doing.

Bit of a lurker, but just read this article on the Guardian website and thought it was very apt. I particularly liked this paragraph:

"Men are not as cowed, self-hating, obedient or biddable as women in this regard. They are not going to make the effort to do anything to please a woman, at the cost of their own comfort. That is something I have always respected about men. They are busy pursuing their own happiness, leaving women to fight through the thicket of their own Stockholm syndrome, perpetually pruning their pubic hair in a desperate bid to gain approval."

Really EenyMeenyMaya? You actually like that paragraph? Why is that?

SGM - you are right she isn't saying that at all! Which is why I wondered why EenyMeenyMaya chose to quote that particular excerpt.

I think some women buy in to it as they saw the mums/female role models do it growing up. If you have never saw your mum on a diet, shave her legs, or be in any way neurotic about your appearance and she still thinks with out all that she looks nice then it means that you are less likely to do that yourself ime.

sorry i meant about her appearance

Oh bugger, I completely mis-represented myself there with a very poor choice of words. I didn't mean 'like' in the way it comes across at all, what I meant to say is that I found the quote a succinct summary of grooming issues this corner of MN has made me question, that I hadn't really thought about before. It is definitely an over dramatic summary (Stockholm syndrome!), but I have always been drawn to the extremes of any argument.

I'm don't think the points the author makes with regard to pubic waxing are new, they were made when the whole Hollywood/Brazilian thing first hit the news a few years ago. What I think makes the article contemporary is that this 'extreme waxing' is no longer rare, in fact in some circles - and I am not referring to pornographic ones - it is the norm.

With regard to choice of words, I actually think that the phrase "buy into" suggests an active choice and I am depressing coming to the conclusion that most women, including myself until recently, consider the need to pluck, wax, adorn, etc, the default option. By that I mean it's just something you do, like wearing deodorant or brushing your teeth.

I'm still not expressing myself very well, questioning such ingrained beliefs after years of practice is almost overwhelming. The more I uncover the more brainwashed I feel. The article simply seemed to summarize some of this stuff...

Noodle you are right, your mother's attitude has a huge influence, there is Research on that and everything.
I read about a study recently that said that the girls who grow up with the least anxiety about their bodies aren't actually the ones whose mothers are always telling them they're beautiful, they're the ones whose mothers never really mention appearance at all.

I actually find it rather fascinating that you can take a para out of the context of Bidisha's splendid feminist rant and it comes across as anti-woman. I wonder if there are some feminists whose writing you can easily do that with and others you can't.

Yesterday I was told that I am letting myself down as a woman by not dyeing my hair to cover the grey. And that I should be setting a better feminine example to my daughter. I replied that I hoped I was teaching her to feel free to be herself and not feel that she had to look like a L'Oreal advert.

LMAO @ you not setting a good enough feminine example to your daughter!
I must say that hadn't crossed my mind as a reason to dye my hair.

you are setting her an excellent example. Not least by being married to a man who understands that the most important thing about feet is that they should have toes.

This thread has made me think about my Mother - she resisted many trappings of feminity - she never wore make up, lived in jeans and shirts tended to wear mens sandals and her hair was usually short though I do recall a terrible perm in the 80's that frightened my little brother so much he didn't want to go to her at school pick up!

She also hated her body constantly battling with weight, she did shave her legs in summer months. I learned nothing about dressing as a 'woman' from her and consquently throughout my teens and early twenties despite always loving dressing up and play acting in swirly dresses since early childhood (seduced by hollywood musicals) - I always felt like I was in drag when wearing dresses out. I wore dm's and no make up never shaving and my only vanity was my hair which as it was long and wavy and ginger I tended to spend a bit more time grooming it - while at uni I dyed it all colours of the rainbow and cut it short, great fun.

Despite or perhaps because of the fact both my parents set no store by appearence, (my Dad had no interest in clothes even wearing the bobbly lining of a jacket outdoors as a 'waistcoat' and both went for the socks and sandals look fgs). my siblings and I are all interested in our clothing now and like nice things and wear make up (well db only occasionally) I discovered clubbing and glitter in my twenties which fulfilled all my dressing up desires. And now in my lateish thirties I put on a bit of eye make and lip gloss a couple of times a week and really enjoy it.

I have gone from not understanding 'feminity' and pitying women who can't go out with a face full of slap (welll I still find that sad tbh) to embracing dressing up and putting on a dab of make up to feel good... so I don't think I will be embarking on this journey with you I feel I have been on it in reverse in a way.... I don't like the word choice as I feel it is over used and meaningless most of the time so I don't choose to wear make up so much as I am comfortable doing it now and I wasn't when I was younger. Being a teenager is horrible and uncertain and now I am so much happier in my own skin and that is truely liberating.

"I am so much happier in my own skin and that is truely liberating." well that's great, bigmouth.

seth! I just showed that to dh and he laughed. He said to tell you that ankles are very helpful too, but that he'd rather you wore socks to keep them warm rather than having them on display, as you live in the uk and it's cold!

btw - I don't mean that feminity is all about dresses and make up etc. or that the decision to reject those trappings is unnecessary - I think it is a very enlightening experience. What I mean in my earlier post is that my upbringing and particularly my Mother (gawd bless er) allowed me the space to discover what I enjoyed about the 'trappings' and reject the rest so I am never troubled by a desire for a pedicure or manicure for example and I do not really dress for men or even women - I hate being restricted by rules and so make up my own as much as possible and now I have two girls and a boy of my own it will be very interesting to see the journey my girls take. I already have one who is obsessed with make up and dresses and ballet and general pinkness which can be quite overwhelming. I hope she grows out of it and expands her interests/ colour palette.

big news in the Starkadder household this morning: I've finally fulfilled a long-held ambition and got dh to do my hair with the clippers.

the whole thing was hilarious. The clippers wouldn't work and we had to take them apart, and dh was convinced a bit had come off and we were hunting round the kitchen for this imaginary bit of the clippers that turned out not to exist.
dh was in a terrible state because he hates gadgets. he was terrified. he wanted me to sign a disclaimer in case it looked awful and i blamed him.
then eventually they started to work and he got into the zone and started to realise it was actually looking quite good.

it looks fantastic. I keep catching sight of myself in the mirror and grinning. Fringe a bit short at front perhaps but that's ok.

LIBERATION!!!!!!!!!

sAf - it was actually one of dh's colleagues, who I also know socially. I went round to visit her to take a present for her baby. Perhaps she was thinking about it because the baby is a girl? I don't know. But yes, so many people seem to think they can harangue you give you the benefit of their considered opinions, no matter what your own feelings might be. Bit rude, really.