Resisteing feminity 2

[garlicbutter]

sethstarkaddersmackerel Wed 16-Mar-11 13:39:12

I was thought-provoked by the 'I'm a feminist but....' thread, particularly Dittany's posts, in which she talked about women who choose not to 'perform femininity'.

I posted on the other thread that I hugely object to all that bikini-line business but do still shave my legs. Am not sure why I do this, so I think I'm going to stop and see how it feels. It felt like a major issue when I was 20 or so but I actually suspect not shaving them now would make me feel more, rather than less, confident.

So I wondered if anyone else was thinking about giving up any beauty practices or other elements of compulsory femininity and would like to do it together and see how it feels.

this is not a competition - if you decide after a day you hate it and can't live without it, fine, but it would be really interesting to hear about, and I think it could advance our understanding of how this all works.

anyone else in?

btw, I am in a vile mood today so if anyone wants to come along to the thread and tell us we are just falling into the trap of thinking all feminists have to have hairy legs, or that actually they wax everything and are a still better feminist than meeeee, I will tell them to fuck off because if you don't 'get' this I can't be bothered explaining, either you get it or you don't smile

ah, redvelvet, i think i was equally critical of both in one of my posts : "Many 'naturally slim' people have become a size 6 by eating nothing and going to the gym, and many size 20s have done so by eating everything and not getting off their backsides and then claim it's their genes or that they're well built"

And then illustrated it with DH's ex-girlfriend ('naturally slim' who actually restricted her diet a lot to be that) and me (eats like a horse but doesn't exercise like one). Neither is a healthier approach than the other, but people would think that the ex-gf is healthier than me because she looks closer to the 'ideal' body shape. She might be healthier, but not necessarily. As it is, I won't swap buttery home-made madeira cake for a green salad with a fat-free dressing, so I'm learning how to shift those calories with exercise. Ran with the buggy yesterday in the heat, and nearly killed myself

Completely agree with you about how my body is nobody's property except myself and nobody should feel they have a right to comment. It does amaze me how we try to teach our daughters that their body is their own and if anybody does something to it without their consent that it is wrong, yet think nothing of casual comments about fat/thin/ugly/beautiful/badly dressed/badly made-up/hairy women or forcing our daughters to wear pink/dresses/hairclips against their will. How mixed up is that? I am guilty of it - but with this thread I am learning not only to love myself but to embrace everyone else's differences and not judge them by society's/my standards. After all, how can I expect not to be judged, if I go around judging?

redvelvet - 'well built' and 'it's her genes' are used a lot to excuse overeating/underexercising.

But you see it's right there!

"'well built' and 'it's her genes' are used a lot to excuse overeating/underexercising."

Therefore you must also be of the view that "naturally thin" is an excuse for undereating/overexercising?

Personally I believe that food intake and exercise are very important in terms of an individual's weight, but I am CONVINCED that a large minority of slightly underweight people would have to force down a few extra potatoes at every mealtime and constantly feel uncomfortably full, and a large minority of slightly overweight people would have to cut their food intake back to a level where they are constantly hungry, in order to fit into the societally accepted "okay weight" box - there is definitely a natural predisposition to your muscle mass, how you store fat etc.

Further to that, I don't give a toss if you've eaten nothing but cup-a-soup since 1986 to stay six and a half stone, or if you eat three Mars bars every day to stay fourteen stone - it's NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

Unfortunately advertisers and the media make it their business, because then they can sell you stuff, the patriarchy (for want of a better word) can use it to keep women and the proles down.

I just don't believe that everyone who is 'naturally thin' is not controlling it in some way, any more than I believe that everyone who is 'well built' or has it 'in their genes' doesn't have an issue with food or exercise. But equally nor do I believe that you automatically have an eating disorder/exercise obsession if you are 'naturally slim'. Some people are naturally slim and some are naturally well-built, but many that use those terms to hide (from themselves? from others?) an issue with food or exercise. It is crazy that at the same time as having a society obsessed with size zero and increasing diagnoses of eating disorders, we also have a burgeoning obesity problem.

I think it comes back to somebody saying downstream that probably size 10-14 is the range in which most women would naturally fall if they had a healthy attitude to food and exercise - got on with both without really thinking about either, I guess! The women with the healthiest attitude to food and exercise that I know are probably a size 12. My friends who obsess on Facebook about their bum being big or going on a diet are invariably a size 10 or a size 16! Why the hell does a size 10 woman feel the need to restrict calories or exercise more just to get into a smaller pair of jeans? A size 16+ woman might need to lose weight for her health (I am one of those) but hardly any size 10 woman would need to lose weight to improve her health, and in fact is risking her health by doing so. Yet she will be praised by everyone for getting to a size 8, for looking great etc. And so the 'ownership' of her body by others continues, and so the myth that the thinner you are the happier you are continues, and so more and more women are forced by society to diet. But if women aren't forced to 'diet' then we seem to think that the opposite of that is being allowed to get fat. But women aren't allowed to get fat either. So we all hate ourselves and fight our bodies and our urges and hence start to obsess about them and hate ourselves even more...

I want to get to a point where I eat and I exercise and I don't think about them any more than I think about going to the loo - I want them to just be a natural process, not something I have to obsess about.

So I'm off to have a salad for lunch, followed by a nice piece of aforementioned buttery madeira cake, and will try not to obsess about either :o

Sorry - that was long, and I'm not entirely sure it was well thought through either! I'm musing on weight/health a lot at the moment and not quite sorted through all my thoughts yet.

To get back to the very original point of this thread, I've just been sorting out my outfit for a wedding on Saturday. And I sat there thinking 'should I shave my legs or not?' I'm wearing a short dress. And the thought that popped into my head as 'It's a wedding. It would be a bit disrespectful not to'. WTF??? It's a bit crazy when someone supposedly as level-headed as me thinks turning up to a wedding with unshaven legs on show is disrespectful. Unusual, yes, but not sure I can sensibly label it disrespectful... And of course the bride and groom will be too excited to notice my legs anyway! But no doubt I will feel it is one of the few occasions where I should shave them and will do so. As it happens, I am wearing a short dress (love summer!) with hairy legs now and will probably be venturing out to M&S and then to collect DS from nursery later - will report back on whether anyone notices! :o

ooh I like a bit of drama and suspense on a thread.
Will Tortilla go to the wedding with hairy legs or not? Will anyone notice? Will she go but take a razor in her handbag and nip into the ladies' and shave halfway through the reception?

fwiw I've just been into town in a knee length dress with hairy legs but I was wearing nude tights, so it's not quite the same.
I was thinking I need some shoes I can wear with a dress without tights without my feet going smelly so I can show off my legs properly without creating offensive odours.

seth - sandals are your friend. They're the only way of getting sufficient air to your feet to avoid odours. Those footsie tight things are just uncomfortable and to be avoided at all costs. But of course then that leads onto the question of whether you need a pedicure or not... :)

Not much suspense here. I will be shaving them for Saturday, I am pretty certain. I just don't think I can leave them. Something in my head equates special occasions with blow-drying my hair properly, wearing make-up, putting on high heels and shaving my legs - all those things I don't consider necessary for day to day life. Funny, isn't it? I will be leaving my nipple hairs though which, given I will be breastfeeding and DD is going through the lift up mummy's top to give everyone an eyeful phase, will probably be on public display :o

I could always shave one leg and leave the other hairy and see which one gets more appreciative stares

I like the one leg shaved one leg not idea, but the bride might think you're trying to steal the limelight!

Musing on the "disrespectful to show hairy legs at a wedding" thing, I suppose men cover their (hairy) legs for weddings, either with trousers or kilt and long socks. I haven't even seen men at beach weddings in shorts...

Some women just don't wear makeup, under any circumstances. I know one who went to a wedding that way, and she was the bride. Nobody said a word, and why should they? She looked like her usual self.

I thought of this thread tonight when I was sneered at by a bevy of well-groomed teens teetering along the pavement into town. I was red-faced, sweaty and if they had got close they'd realised I was smelly too . but I had just run 3 miles, I was feeling strong, empowered and really pleased with myself! I'd rather have been in shoes (sweaty as they were) than theirs. I felt so beautiful - muscles taut and strong, heart beating.

So the only comment on my appearance today in M&S was one woman who came up to me and said 'nice dress' :) All other comments were directed at cooing DD. So if you want to go out in public with hairy legs but are a teensy bit scared, just take a baby as your decoy

Ormirian - love your story. I look and feel a fright when running, but it's wirth it for that high you get when you've finished your run. I'm not sure I feel beautiful, but a good run does give me a little bit of that feeling I got from giving birth to DD - being in awe of your body and completely aware of every bit of it and what it can do when you put your mind to it.

I got wolf-whistled on the way to pick dd up from after-school club

this hasn't happened for years.

I don't think it is coincidence - I was probably thinking 'Yay, I look so amazing in my dress with my hairy legs'.

I'm not sure this is what I hoping for when I started the thread though....

at SSM in wolfwhistle conflict!

And Studland beach is it Tortilla? Planning a wild swimming break on the Dorset coast and love the feel of nude swimming :)

oh seth, that is so funny. confidence is sexy, hairy legs or no, whatever the veet manufacturers try and tell us.

i still haven't cut my hair (am skint). but intend to as soon as payday hits. tomorrow is my last day at work, so i feel like i'm having a bit of a readjustment. have spent forever quite deliberately ignoring my boss twittering about my trousers and clogs

is it wrong to be smiling about a wolf-whistle?

unrulysun - yep, Studland. Fabulous beach, and NT run so the naturist bit is very official rather than you feeling a bit naughty like on many of the unofficial ones. In the summer they have a little mobile cafe at the naturist bit - fully clothed student summer workers serving icecream and tea to a mixture of clothed and naked people without batting an eyelid :) So you can get refreshments in the middle of your swim!

It's very popular and nice to go as a family as you don't feel like the only naturists in the village :) And it is a glorious sandy beach too.

If anyone is interested, there are two great books called Bare Beaches and Bare Beaches Europe which detail loads of naturist friendly beaches. They tend to be clothing-optional rather than naked-mandatory :o so you can wear clothes if you don't want to strip and if nothing else it is just nice to be able to change from swimming costume into clothes without having to contort yourself under a towel :o

are we going to discover a correlation between wild swimming and compulsory femininity resistance?

I don't actively seek out nude swimming but I tend to immerse myself in random bits of water when I find one I like, freshwater more than sea probably because it goes with dh being into hillwalking. Sometimes I don't have a swimsuit with me so I just go in nude. Sometimes there are people around, sometimes not. If it is the middle of winter I always think they're probably more interested in the fact that I'm actually going into the sea in December than what I might or might not be wearing.

I think this woman needs to get with the project:

Mother obsessed with pink

Ooh Seth! I have lovely memories of wild swimming in the lake district and West coast of Scotland. Hot, sweaty, midge-ridden bodies plunging knot icy cold zingingly fresh mountain streams tasting of peat and turquoise sea on White sand that makes you shout with the cold. Bliss! wish my family weren't such townies

SSM I have not done December (although dh did the Hampstead ponds this December - brrrrr) but March I've done and plenty cool enough it was :)

the cold is part of the point though isn't it?

do you think our hairy legs will insulate us much?

I stupidly put some tights on today to go to dd's school puppet performance and firstly it was hot and sweaty, secondly I was sitting with people who are my mates anyway, and thirdly the velcro from ds2's sandals kept catching on them.
that told me. 15 denier nylon tights are just stupid. bloody things.

there's a thread on Style and Beauty about someone who had their eyebrows waxed and it was too hot and now their skin is burnt