Resisteing feminity 2

[garlicbutter]

sethstarkaddersmackerel Wed 16-Mar-11 13:39:12

I was thought-provoked by the 'I'm a feminist but....' thread, particularly Dittany's posts, in which she talked about women who choose not to 'perform femininity'.

I posted on the other thread that I hugely object to all that bikini-line business but do still shave my legs. Am not sure why I do this, so I think I'm going to stop and see how it feels. It felt like a major issue when I was 20 or so but I actually suspect not shaving them now would make me feel more, rather than less, confident.

So I wondered if anyone else was thinking about giving up any beauty practices or other elements of compulsory femininity and would like to do it together and see how it feels.

this is not a competition - if you decide after a day you hate it and can't live without it, fine, but it would be really interesting to hear about, and I think it could advance our understanding of how this all works.

anyone else in?

btw, I am in a vile mood today so if anyone wants to come along to the thread and tell us we are just falling into the trap of thinking all feminists have to have hairy legs, or that actually they wax everything and are a still better feminist than meeeee, I will tell them to fuck off because if you don't 'get' this I can't be bothered explaining, either you get it or you don't smile

Yep, it's personal. People are discussing the things they personally are doing and seeing how it is going for them.

We do lots more to progress feminism too. This thread isn't the sum total of our efforts.

I'd suggest reading the OP's messages on the original thread that explain both the premise and give some reading suggestions.

I love what you said, Seth, I'm finding it easier to focus on what does look good about me. Apart from the fact that I was shocked to realise I'd never seen my body as it really is - and now, at least, I do know what I look like! - I was worried about the way I only saw my face as a collection of flaws to be fixed with cosmetics. I've got used to my own face now, and I like it :) I've stopped judging myself on appearance.

Garlicbutter - one thing I had not expected is the knock-on effect on how one views one's appearance as a whole.
I thought legs were just about legs, but it turns out starting with your legs (or your make-up or hair dye or heels or whatever makes most sense to you) can then change the way you view other bits of your body.
freaky huh?!

thinking about Allegra's posts towards the end of the first threads:

it's not realise surprising someone who is well-groomed gets a lot of approbation from other women; part of it I think it because grooming is actually pretty difficult - there is an art to it.
I was in an art gallery briefly today and there was a very beautifully dressed woman in a lovely 50s dress with perfect make-up, hair and shoes, very retro and glossy. I enjoyed looking at her. Seeing her in amongst all the art objects made it clear what was going on: she was an art object too, she had turned herself into one and I admired her skill.
Could this maybe be the germ of a way to feel better about rejecting these practices: you do not want to be an art object all the time; sometimes you want to be yourself, even if you are a skilled artist.
(Reminds me of my nephew aged about 4 when we went to a sculpture park with an Antony Gormley cast of a man on a pillar. My brother and I explained the process of full-body casting to my nephew and we must have failed to explain all the stages properly because a look of horror came over him: 'But what if he doesn't want to be a statue? What if he doesn't want to stand on a pillar all the time?')
TBH it is probably also the case that if you are a good groomer you can drop some of the aspects of grooming and still take a pride in doing well the ones you decide to keep, because if you are good at this thing overall you are probably also better than the average at any one aspect.

typo in second line, should say 'not really surprising'

SGM and psychoveggie - it's a bee in my bonnet for a number of reasons, but I feel women could do a lot worse than be much more militant against skinny rules. When I first started caring about it, I could call it fat-ism but it's gone way further than that now. The demarcation line for 'fat' is getting lower by the year. It's widely deemed OK to talk about overweight people as if they were unable to think rationally (yet British women are getting larger, so how does that mean we feel about ourselves & other women?)

Despite strong protests by fashion gurus and celebs, designers are now making samples up to size 6 only - this is for teenage girls of 5'10" and taller - and flatly refusing to use models with flesh on their limbs. Models are 'models', not mannequins, to the young and the fashion-conscious; how can it be acceptable to put starving young women in the spotlight as icons of feminine perfection?

Self-declaration: I am an Orbach fan. I have had anorexia. I've been thin, fat, fit and feeble, in all four permutations (currently fat & feeble, if you must know). I've got 7 nieces and 5 nephews, all with body-image issues and all thin. It worries me a lot.

I've been lurking. I have never been mega groomed although I have often wished I had the skill. I used to only wear make up on nights out. As I get older I feel more pressure to wear it for some reason.

I don't shave my legs in the winter, I hate doing it and dh doesn't care but I wouldn't have the nerve to show them in public.

Thinking about this thread I noticed that when I had a meeting with my boss who basically scares me and is known to be a bully I felt the need to dress up, put make up on etc. It felt like a protection thing.

I feel sad that I have spent so much of my life hating the way I look. I would love to change that somehow.

I have never shaved my legs if you do then your hair grows back coarser and stumblier. Its a big mistake to do it in the first place cause it wont be soft.

Also fine if you are bigger that should be fine but I hate it when people say a 'real' woman is only whatever size and skinny isnt natural. It is for some people and I dont think people make that distinction. I have no body image issues and am very slim. I know I look nice and I have never been on a diet. Its just natural for me. I do think its silly though when some people say you must starve yourself, what do you eat etc. Some people are just a natural tiny size.

The whole fat/thin thing is one that I am working through at the moment. I have struggled in the past with my weight because I love food but don't love exercise. I'm 6 months post-partum having not really got healthy between the two pregnancies, and I"ve realised that I need to exercise more because the most important thing I can do for my children at the start of their lives is to set a good example about health and I've come to the conclusion that the only way you can be truly healthy is to love food and love exercise in equal part. Love one more than the other, and you're going to have issues. Many 'naturally slim' people have become a size 6 by eating nothing and going to the gym, and many size 20s have done so by eating everything and not getting off their backsides and then claim it's their genes or that they're well built. Eat well, exercise well and see where you get to and learn to be happy with that. In that regard I really look up to my DH. He eats really well and exercises 3 times a week on top of being active with the children and round the house. He doesn't obsess about one or the other, and he has it sussed. It turns out he is naturally very slim due to fast metabolism - very low body fat and low weight - and wishes he was a bit heavier, but is happy to live with it as he is because he has the balance just right and is how he is meant to be IYSWIM.

He used to go out with someone who was a size 8/10, tall, slim, a real clothes horse - they just looked fabulous on her. Everyone says she is naturally slim because she doesn't look anorexic and she probably believes it herself. But being with her did DH's head in as he'd make her dinner and she'd pick at it, they'd go to a nice restaurant and she'd push a salad round the plate. She wasn't truly naturally slim - she ate too few calories for that to be her natural weight. She looked great, she was pretty fit, but she wasn't truly healthy.

Me, I eat like a horse so I need to exercise like one too. I'm working on that bit now - lost 10cm off my waist since November when I started (exercise - no diet restrictions at all as I'm bf AND love my food) and am now probably closing in on a size 14 now rather than my previous post-partum 18. But more importantly than that to me now, I'm only an inch away from being under the diabetes risk factor for waist measurement, and that is a much better goal than dress size. I'm also just tipping 30 BMI now so moving from obese to overweight which to me is a big deal as I've been over 30 for 4 years, although there is a long way to go before I can be considered close to within the healthy range!

Oh that was long and rambling, sorry. It's amazing what issues this thread is making me think through :)

Hello.

Love this!

I despise the word 'feminine'! WTF does it mean? If it simply means the qualities of being female, then say 'female'. But of course it doesn't, it means the things women are supposed to do to be acceptable and proper women. Boxes again!

I do try to resist but if I'm honest I am getting worse at sticking to my guns as I age. Windswept and natural works when you are youthful, not so much when you are over 40 . But I do try. I manage to forswear the razor most days and do without makeup when I'm not going to work but I can't quite break the habits I have got into.

Re size - I am 5'11" so never likely to be a size 8 I guess. My natural weight hovers about 11s - generally i can maintain that without dieting and without bingeing. I have tried to get lower but only managed it when I was ill or dieting really hard. Neither of which was much fun.

Aliceworld
We do lots more to progress feminism too. This thread isn't the sum total of our efforts.

I didn't mean to suggest that this is all the MN feminist board are doing! Sorry! I was more specifically meaning the femininity/pressure to be beautiful in order to be feminine thing. I just felt that the hairy legs thing plays so easily into the hands of those that would stereotype feminists (I already wear Doc Martins!) Maybe I shouldn't be concerned about that.

The size issue is interesting. I feel personally that I've totally lost sight of whether my size is acceptable, healthy etc. because I feel I do not have a healthy example to compare it to. I really quite obsessively watch my stomach grow and shrink depending on how "good" I'm being in the mirror, so if I could combat that it would probably do more for me becoming a confident woman than body hair.

Will probably lurk some more and watch with interest.

I'm just really glad this forum is here. It's really sparked my interest in feminism again (having become a lot more passive and caught up in mundane every day life). Got myself Gyn/Ecology off Amazon so might read that before I come back as I'm no expert on feminist theory.

I have been underweight and overweight. My mother was annorexic and food was a big deal in our house. She still makes me food and gives to me with the tag line 'Don't eat all of that, that's massive, but if you want to eat it all then you go ahead' then stands there and watches me while she eats nada. I have no concept of what normal eating is but now I have a dd I have got to sort it out.

The only way for me to be the size I feel I should be is to undereat and over exercise so I can't go back to that. I gave up the scales for a start. I want to eat well and exercise well and live in a healthy body. I want that in my head but I can't stop feeling ashamed of my body just now. It's so wired in me and I am not sure how I can rewire if you like. I really believe feminism is the key for me with this though. It helped me in another area of my life where I really believed one thing and feminism helped me to internalise a change in my thinking.

yes, you totally don't have to do hairy legs if that's not what makes sense to you.

Just thinking about the comment 'the hairy legs thing plays so easily into the hands of those that would stereotype feminists'.
See, I think we can turn it round and see this as a good thing: if people outside feminism want to see hairy legs as a badge that denotes a feminist, then doing something that makes you look like a stereotypical feminist will also demonstrate that you are not ashamed to be seen as a feminist.
It's quite a liberating moment when you realise you don't care.

Dittany I'm being stupid here but how did you link to that Killing Me Softly 3, want to post it to my facebook page. TIA

I'm an idiot and have worked it out, at least this page is now bookmarked again.

oh sorry x-post, thanks dittany.