is there a new cognitive dissonance thread?

[kickassangel]

if so, please link, i can't find it.

if not, i'd like to add some things

using personal experience to prove a point is not a great argument. we have to start with the bigger picture, then see personal experiences as a case study which exemplifies, but does not prove a point.

i'm not even sure that i view myself as a feminist. i view myself as someone who believes in equality (not just on male/female issues). the generalisations about feminism being a religion i find offensive, as they both ignore the patriarchal society we live in (and this assertion can be backed up by endless statistics & experiences), and assume that one particular viewpoint is religious.

is marxism a religion? what about other schools of thought?

feminism is a broad range of thought, and there will be changes and shifts within the arguments, just as there are in other sociological concepts. and there will be women who abuse, just as there are men who do so.

however, look at the structure of society, and it is impossible to say that it isn't patriarchal. just look at the possession of wealth, the media representation of people, the male/female ration in positions of power.

if it was as simple as some women 'not bothering' to push themselves forward, there would still be enough women to fill 50% of all key positions in society, and to hold 50% of the wealth, but that isn't what happens. so, it sin't due to a lack of women exerting themselves, it is due to the inherent sexism within society.

I have been trying to educate you.
Sadly, I think your cognitive dissonance is proving hard to break down.

And of course there are things you could say which dont involve sophistry, the fact you even asked that just proves your cognitive dissonance regarding the matter.

.

Footlong I haven't got a clue what your point is I'm afraid.

Still, the origins of the word sophistry are quite jolly, (if a bit patriarchal).

From wiki (yeah, I know).

"The Greek words sophos or sophia had the meaning of "wise" or "wisdom" since the time of the poet Homer, and originally connoted anyone with expertise in a specific domain of knowledge or craft. Thus a charioteer, a sculptor, and a warrior could be sophoi in their occupations. Gradually the word came to denote general wisdom and especially wisdom about human affairs (in, for example, politics, ethics, or household management)."

Oh, Footlong, you are such a clever man!
How could have I doubted your superior intellect?! Forgive me!

Well if you won't educate us, how can we learn?

Sadly we will have to remain in our nasty, dirty, warm, moist, tunnel of ignorance.

:o

Anyhoo, coming back to what StayFrosty posted. (Bravely facing the swinging bollocks)

I do sometimes (uncharitably) think that DH is very complementary of his own cooking and especially of his judicious use of quality ingredients (which whilst very nice would break the bank if used in every day cooking, um, everyday).

Interestingly, Sophism fell out of favour as Plato was against them. He was also against humour.

Because me and DP don't have shared finances, we split the costs of most shopping etc. I don't think he has noticed that I will be spending a few quid on ingredients for dinner, whereas he will be forking on £20 at a time for fancy whatnots and bottles of wine.

I've bloody noticed though. It's like going for dinner with a greedy bastard who wants to split the bill even though he's had 3 courses and you've just had the soup.

Ouch.

DH doesn't clean the bathroom. But I don't know why.

Now you do, dirty powder lady.

Footlong, why do you care?

None of us are your wife (I presume). Why does a bunch of uppity women on the internet, with whom you fundamentally disagree, bother you so much? Is it just that you are bored and have nothing else to do?

My XP is a fundamentalist Marxist. He and his comrades spend hours discussing the Marxist approach to whatever it is that happens to be the burning issue of the day. I once ventured onto their website and within the space of a few posts, realised that my philosophical starting point and their's, are so far removed, that there is simply no point in me trying to participate in any discussion with them - there is simply no meeting point at which meaningful debate can occur. I don't feel passionately enough about Marxism, to keep going back to their site every week in order to interrupt their discussion about Raoul Moat, or David Milliband, or the budget or whatever it is, in order to tell them that their starting point is wrong. That would be pointless. Why do you feel so passionate about feminism?

Actually I love it when DH cleans the bathroom.

When he cleans the bathroom it is more special than what I do and must be respected by all.

I laugh up my sleeve but fail to challenge the cognitive dissonance.

He definitely poos, and I don't use talc.

I'm going to think about this now and maybe tonight I will dream the answer with my pink fluffy intuition.

I'm a lurker trying to learn, and I really don't get why Footlong is getting so het up about.

who does, pithy? it's a mystery.

And a bit of a shame because it could have been an interesting discussion.

HerBeatitude - That is an interesting post and question. I will ponder it.
But on first perusal I think you make sense.

Initially I got directed here without even seeing that I was redirected to the feminist section. So I didnt decide to start talking about feminism.
However in the thread entered, I saw some behaviour which I genuinely find to be bullying, nasty, bigoted and irrational. And I noticed some people (not me at that stage) were the victims of some nasty attacks. Combine the facts that I hate bullies, snide people and sophristry. I ended up carrying on the conversation.
I am not really interested in entering to many other femisnist threads (for the reasons you have outlined). So when the origina CD thread fisnished, that should ahve been it, but nooo.. a new thread started.. of which the entire first page was full of off topic bitching about other posters. Sophistry and snideness.

In a small way it is a shame for me that I ever accidently discovered this thread, as I used to be neutral towards feminists, however if this is an example of feminism, then I dislike this interpretation, and I am quietly confident most sane people would (male and female).

And I do wonder how many feminists on here are actually happy. Not just post it ona board and say it, but when they are in bed at night, and really ask themselves. 'Am I happy?' Going by the posts I have seen, the vast majority would say no.

There is a group think in place here, and it isnt just against males, it is against anyone who disagrees with the 'Mysandry Cabal'. But I dont expect most on here to understand that, or even critique what occurs. and if they did.. they would just become a victim themselves. The irony being that feminism is supposedly linked with freedom... it has been taken over on this board by deeply unhappy Mysandric group think bullies.

look, footlong I've stood it as long as possible, but if you're going to use the made up word please spell it m i s a n d r y.

Listen a sec footlong - most people think like you. Most women experience street harrassment or comments at work or groping on the bus etc, and never think "hang on, there's something going on here". Most people would see the news about women being mass-raped in Darfur and just think "chuh, war eh?". But some of us have realised that there is a pattern going on. Even you must see that men kill other men, and men kill and hurt many women too. Barely any women hurt and kill yet they are constantly on the receiving end of violence. Do you agree so far?

So feminism is an effort to stop the violence and the pain and the suffering that women experience because they are women. Men are not often raped during wars (and yes they are killed by each other, but far more non-combatants fall victim these days), they do not have their female friends offering to walk them home at night, they are not being paid less because they might at some point have kids. Or are they? Am I missing something?

So in what way is this belief "misandric"?

Which part of what I'm writing is lies?

Most people think like you, you are not the unique lone voice you think you are. Consult a comments thread at the DM or any paper and you will find hundreds of your brothers and sisters. Why pretend that feminism is the dominant voice that you are brave enough to stand against?

Why do you think feminists here are unhappy?

Perhaps some are - statistically, it's likely to be the married ones. (Sorry sisters ). But do you honestly think that people have a particular world-view because of emotional dissatisfaction, rather than an analysis of what they know about the world?

I suppose a lot of people would accuse the Marxists I referred to of only being marxist becuase they are unhappy. But that isn't true - some of them are, to be sure, and I am certain that a number of them have this philosophy because their particular interpretation of it, lets them off the hook vis a vis getting a job and taking responsibility for their lives; but many of them are perfectly happy, functional people wth normal happy lives. They hold a philosophy with which I disagree, because they have observed the world adn done reading which leads them to the conclusion with which I disagree. I don't attribute that conclusion to unhappiness on their part.

Re your musings about who is happy or not, I thought that was one of the points of the thread - to try and work out why so many people are unhappy even though the whole of society and their own upbringing and education, is telling them that the logical thing they ought to be, is happy. And whether cognitive dissonance is the result of that and how people can stop feeling that so that they have more meaningfully happy relationships.

Perhaps we ought to start a new thread asking how many feminists around here are really happy and why. And if not, why not. I suspect that many feminists are more happy than not, as their analysis of their personal situations (the personal is political) enables them to tackle unhappiness more directly and therefore hopefully, avoid cognitive dissonance.

HerB - I'm really happy in myself, but I am definitely not always happy when I think about atrocities being committed around the world. That article a few weeks ago about "honour" killings really did my head in - the widespread nature of these crimes is just horrifying.

I think in some ways being a feminist makes it even more upsetting, because you know that part of the reason that people are getting away with it is because women and girls are systematically undervalued. So it's not just a crime, it's an injustice, and injustice upsets most people I would think.

But OTOH being a feminist in my every day life is great for me. I never have to listen to people making shitty "hilarious" sexist comments for example and wonder why I feel so intimidated or annoyed - I just tell them to skip forward 60 years and join the 21st century. I have a lovely partner with whom I have a relationship where neither of us has weird expectations on the other based on their sex (like that I will be excellent at hoovering or that he is a natural mechanic).