is there a new cognitive dissonance thread?

[kickassangel]

if so, please link, i can't find it.

if not, i'd like to add some things

using personal experience to prove a point is not a great argument. we have to start with the bigger picture, then see personal experiences as a case study which exemplifies, but does not prove a point.

i'm not even sure that i view myself as a feminist. i view myself as someone who believes in equality (not just on male/female issues). the generalisations about feminism being a religion i find offensive, as they both ignore the patriarchal society we live in (and this assertion can be backed up by endless statistics & experiences), and assume that one particular viewpoint is religious.

is marxism a religion? what about other schools of thought?

feminism is a broad range of thought, and there will be changes and shifts within the arguments, just as there are in other sociological concepts. and there will be women who abuse, just as there are men who do so.

however, look at the structure of society, and it is impossible to say that it isn't patriarchal. just look at the possession of wealth, the media representation of people, the male/female ration in positions of power.

if it was as simple as some women 'not bothering' to push themselves forward, there would still be enough women to fill 50% of all key positions in society, and to hold 50% of the wealth, but that isn't what happens. so, it sin't due to a lack of women exerting themselves, it is due to the inherent sexism within society.

Thats a huge question herBeatitude! I cannot possibly answer for every example I have seen. But I have seen some posters that has made me think 'That is a truely disturbed and menatlly ill person'. I amy be right, I may be wrong, it is just my hunch based on the posts I have read.

I am not going to start a new thread, as many people simply wouldnt admit to unhappiness.. especially if I was asking!

I thought that was one of the points of the thread - to try and work out why so many people are unhappy even though the whole of society and their own upbringing and education, is telling them that the logical thing they ought to be, is happy. And whether cognitive dissonance is the result of that and how people can stop feeling that so that they have more meaningfully happy relationships.

Agreed. However it turned into (amongst other things) poster insisting others were not happy depsite protestations from the 'happy people' that they were happy. I would also say that CD isnt as narrow as people tried to paint it. I think there is CD occurring in the feminism area of this board! I lost track how many times people tried to explain that they were genuinely happy and not suffering CD, were shouted down and bullied... and forcibly tld that they WERE sufering CD. And it wasnt a one -one debate, it was group think and bullying.

ElephantsAndMiasmas - Good for you. Not everyone who disagrees with me in here, do I instantly think 'they are unhappy and need therapy' Many (the vast majority in fact), just happen to be people who disagree with me and think I am a fool. I dont have an issue with peole thinking that, but there is a vocal section here that are downright nasty and bullying. And not ony are they defended by the others, double standards are aplied in there favour. Nobody tries to debate or reason with them, and the the threads get poisoned and nobody really notices! Admittedly I have only entered a few threads, so might be being unfair to the rest fo the threads, but the fact the CD thread followed that script is damning.

I would love to name names.. but that is hardly constructive.

I challenge you to go back through this thread and read the posts, try and be as neutral as possible, and forget what 'side' you are on and who you think is a twat because of previous discussions.... and just look at the posts and try and think if this person has issues.

Hopefully you may see what I am meaning.

I think that from the evidence of the threads that you have been on that the person with obvious issues is you. In that you seem totally unaware that you really aren't very welcome. If this was a real life conversation you would have found that everyone who was having the conversation before you tried to join in would have moved elsewhere. Unfortunately we can't do that here, and why should we, this is our space, created very kindly for us by mumsnet at our request.

I don't know why you have appointed yourself as "protector of the vulnerable" from the terrible bullying that apparently only you can see. Most people here (on mumsnet) are perfectly capable of defending themselves, and do so, it's that sort of place. If you want fluffiness then go to bounty or another kinder forum. You'd be just as out of place because these sites are even more for mothers/women, but that doesn't seem to bother you, so why not.

nooka - You are a perfect example of what I am talking about. Thnak you.

Why should we actually listen to the views on what feminism is doing wrong or right, by someone who thinks the whole thing is a pile of rubbish?

Why on earth would any of us care if you accuse us of sophistry or floristry or anything? Nooka is right, people were having a discussion that they were all finding interesting. They can't avoid you, they can only tell you to piss off and start your own thread to discuss these things. It's not shutting down discussion - it's sorting it out so that two different conversations take place separately, the whole point of "threads" surely.

So why don't you hasten off and start one?

Unless your agenda is not honest debate, but just the prevention of other people discussing the issues that are important to them?

Oh dear ... back to this again are we. I am not the one trying to take things off topic.
I have posted examples of this.

The claim you are making is just a straw man.

oh, god, no. if he interrupted this conversation in the pub, i'd still be there at 3am, drinking him under the table, natch and finding out why he's spent so long hanging round if he's not that bothered. i'd have to bugger off to the ladies every time he got boring about sophistry, but i'm fascinated to know what he really thinks about feminists/ isms.

Oh My God. I am sooooo bored of this. What could have been a useful discussion is now just dull.

Will start some other threads where we might be able to have a decent conversation instead.

Larry / Footlong :

You are quite entitled to your opinions; but I would repectfully suggest that you go and express them else where.

To explain: I find the threads on style and beauty ridiculous, that anyone would think about having comestic surgery, bikini wax or whatever absolutely incomprehensible. Why would anyone one want to voluntarily inffict pain on themselves? I might even find myself getting annoyed that our society has brainwashed us into thinking that old is ugly, and that ugly is somehow a bad thing; I might want to tell them that it is stupid to think that that natural body hair was somehow disgusting in some areas but attractive in others.

But you know? I would never dream of going on to a thread on these topics and saying anything of the kind. Neither would I go into a beauty parlour and start laughing at the stylists or their clients.

I wonder if you understand that your contributions on this thread so far only serve to reinforce the idea that there exists a "feminist-hating cabal" (to use your language) whose only aim is to disrupt their discussions.

I imagine you feel very smug behind your computer screens. Your posts show that you feel utterly superior to all of us on here; and from your intellectual heights you are aiming to amuse yourselves by "winding up stupid feminists". Quite frankly, (in the language of my mother) you are just showing yourselves up.

I repeat: you can have any opinion you like. Go and start your own thread about "why feminism is a religion" if you want; or "why feminists are stupid". But please stop trolling about on profeminist threads in this tedious manner.

And apologies to all who have said this already. I appear to have somehow missed a whole page of discussion.

Although, and I'm glad I read it in the end. Footlong (and your name refers to what exactly?) your comment "I'm trying to educate you" (Tue 28-Sep-10 23:04:16) has made my night.

You could be trying to save my eternal soul, you know, and it wouldn't change what I think about your presence on this thread.

At least with religious callers you at least have the option of shutting the door.

Hey Catitainahatita, haven't seen you around for a while (probably since I dropped out of the in America threads). Hope you are well :)

You are quite entitled to your opinions; but I would repectfully suggest that you go and express them else where.

I respectfully decline and repsectfully suggest you stop telling others where they should post. And you are comparing me to a religous caller? That is rich!.. and funny.

Hey Catitainahatita, haven't seen you around for a while (probably since I dropped out of the in America threads). Hope you are well

Is this where I tell you to stay on topic or start a 'Hello Catitainahatita' thread?
Nah....

Oh do fuck off there's a dear footlong.

Footlong- do you challenge 'bullying' wherever you perceive to see it? Or is it only against women when you can be anonymouse? This seems pretty cowardly behaviour.
If there was a group of men in a pub,arguing and one was getting (in your opinion) picked on, would you steam over to defend him?
As a protector of the bullied Whenever you see it?
Or do you just have Internet balls?

so not only are we stupid and lies, but we also have mental health issues....makes you wonder why anyone would want to hang out with us

Elephants,

All words are made up! It just depends when.

Misogyny is certainly older though, dating to 1656 according to the OED.

An argument that is really detestable is that men are responsible for wars and rapes. It is broadly true factually (although Marie Antoinette and Gace Mujuru show females can be pretty nasty too). But men are also physically stronger and (on average) more competitive, due to having more testosterone. To use that in this day an age as an argument for why males SHOULD run society would be rightly shot down. So, to use the fact that some males use their superior strength and competitiveness to criminal ends is not an argument that we live in a patriarchal society. It is an argument for good laws and societal condemnation of criminals to protect the weak in any sense of the word.

Yes you are right larry, there is no patriarchy.
SOme pertinent advice: if you insist on engaging with mad, delusional people, it says as much about you as it does about them.

Eh?

Just who exactly is doing all the raping if it isn't men? Pigeons? Androids?

So because the fact that some men are naturally stronger and more violent isn't a good excuse for them running the show, the patriarchy has magically disappeared because the reasoning behind it is a lot of bollocks? If only.

So the fact that men dominate every institution going isn't evidence of a patriarchy - it is only evidence that our male dominated laws are not stopping men from exercising their natural tendency to fuck over those 'weaker' than them (I thought that's what a patriarchy was). Right?

Larry that is a very impressive example of cognitive dissonance - top marks!

Sakura,

Never called anyone mad or delusional. Possible to have a debate between two sane people with different views.

Do you have a son, Sakura? Are you going to bring him up with the idea that men are the dangerous sex?

Oh and footlong, your patronising touching tale of stumbling into this section and then realising that the laydeez need you to act as their knight in shining armour against the nasty feminists somehow doesn't ring quite true in the light of the unpleasant personal attack you made on Sakura.

Beachcomber,

Of course it is men!

Who is responsible for every single illegal late abortion in the world? Women?

Does that mean women are naturally babyhaters?

Nope, it means that only women are physically capable of carrying babies. The argument that men do all the raping is the exact equivalent. Evolution has meant that both sexes are capable of great good and great harm, just in different ways. Sometimes it seems that you and a few others believe that millennia of evolution can be undone in a matter of a hundred years, merely by a change in society.

And your post is a great example of sophistry. I say I dislike one particular argument for saying that there is a patriarchal society. You then say that I am using that very argument to justify why men should be on top. Never said it, never implied it.

Brace yourself Sakura - looks like the other bloke is going for the sneaky passive aggressive personal attack using the sly 'I was just asking a question' technique.

Bit of advice for you Sakura - know and keep your place and don't stand up to the huge swinging bollocks (or god forbid, mock them), otherwise they will attack you (and it will be all your fault for being weak, or something).

"Who is responsible for every single illegal late abortion in the world? Women?

Does that mean women are naturally babyhaters?

Nope, it means that only women are physically capable of carrying babies."

Um Larry, I hate to be the one to break it to you but women don't get pregnant by themselves in a societal vacuum.

And you seem to forget in your sick 'argument' that many late abortions happen because the baby is not viable.

< That's a puke face BTW.

< Another puke face for the rape apologist (that's you Larry)

Beachcomber,

You are personally being very unpleasant. I am not a "rape apologist". No more for every sick criminal man than for Joyce Mujuru, Vice President of Zimbabwe, who has personally encouraged rape as an instrument of repression.

My argument is no sicker than "men do all the raping" ="men are rapists". My argument is an analogy. And this is Larrygrylls lecturing Beachcomber both for personal unpleasantness and a lack of logic, it is purely personal. It is not "the menz" trying to dominate the women.