Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

'Sunny, I have two questions for you. First, how does this affect you and dh having sex? Is it ever just the two of you, or is there someone else always in your head?

Secondly, how would you feel about your dc knowing about what you do?'

It doesnt effect us having sex at all. We are realistic and admit to finding other people attractive and just share it with ecah other. We also both get turned on by the idea of watching each other with someone else. We are both secure in our marriage to share our fantasies and I know I have a great body, looks etc not to feel threatened and it is something we both enjoy. I dont expect everyone to want to do it but object to people saying things like this should be banned when a lot is consensual.

With regards to the DCS are you going to tell your kids every position you did it in and full details of your sex life? If not then why would this come up? If you mean would I mind my children doing this when they are older then no of course not its something that is up to them and their partners.

'I was just thinking if any of my FB friends offered to do that for DH they wouldn't stay on my friend's list for long!'

I met them and they are now on our facebook

Carmen, I don't know the origins of every product I consume, but I make an effort to:

1. Not consume stuff known to be from unethical industries.
2. Not consume stuff I don't need.
3. Not consume stuff I can produce for myself or source locally from a friend or neighbour.
4. Find out as much as I can about how stuff is consumed so that I can make the ethical possible choice.

And loads of people do this - examining what goes on in the food industry, the clothes industry and so on has been a major focus of left wing and liberal people for a long time, but people have been wary of really thinking about the sex industry.

'But there's a huge amount of amateur porn out there including lesbian erotica. You cannot categorically say that all porn involves abuse. If one woman or two women want to film themselves and get an exhibitionist thrill out of putting that out there, there is no abuse. They are adults exercising free will and doing something they enjoy.

To say that you shouldn't watch something unless you absolutely know for a fact no-one was in any way damaged or hurt or disadvantaged in some way is just nonsense. Do you know the origins of every single service or product you use?'

Well said Carmen. Have you ever bought anything from next, gap, primark, nike and many other places? If so they may have come from a sweat shop so unethical. Have you ever bought anything from a supermarket that doesnt pay their suppliers fairly? If so unethical. IS everything you buy fairtrade? If not then something probably came from an unethical source.

Many of these items would of been made by women in awaful conditions working 16+ hours a day for little pay not even being able to care for their own children. How is this notworse than the kind of porn that is made by people that wanted to make porn?

"To say that you shouldn't watch something unless you absolutely know for a fact no-one was in any way damaged or hurt or disadvantaged in some way is just nonsense. Do you know the origins of every single service or product you use?"

No, I don't, but I try to make ethical choices and this is one of them. I, personally, could not get excited watching something if I thought there was any chance that there was suffering going on before my eyes. Also, how would I know that, by watching it, I wasn't helping to fund a site that shows more sinister stuff. I just think it's wrong.

Sunny, unless everyone you send something to has deleted everything you've sent and not forwarded or saved anything then one day your dc could be searching for porn and find you.

Stuff fron the net gets printed everywhere, even in the daily newspapers when there isn't a lot else going on. How can you be sure that one day your dc won't get their mates looking at you on their phones at school?

Sharing fantasies is one thing, acting on them is something else. What happens when your body isn't so hot as the girl on the webcam?

And can you really be sure that neither of you will fall for someone that you meet?

x-posts MillyR - you put it better.

'Sunny, unless everyone you send something to has deleted everything you've sent and not forwarded or saved anything then one day your dc could be searching for porn and find you'

Well no not really as you can make it without showing faces so unless you go through and analyse the millions of similar amateur videos on sites until they recognise one then it is doubtful. It can be angled so you can only see certain parts so difficult to differentiate.

Also my body will never be not as hot as the girl on the webcam . We are 100% sure we will never fall for anyone as we just see this as something that turns us on and thats all it is for us.

I don't think you have to be left-wing or liberal to care about ethical production of anything, you just need to have some compassion.

I think that part of the reason we don't like to talk about the sex industry is because of the caricature of feminists as sexually frustrated jealous 'hairy' (as someone put it on another thread) bitter old shrews who would shut up if only they were getting some.

That coupled with a sense that it's too late to do anything...

See, I think the word 'porn' is emotive and misleading because everyone has a different definition of porn.

What we're talking about is mediatising sexual acts, whether real or acted.

The important question is consent. My feeling is that women are grown ups. If they sign a consent form without duress (gun to the head, blackmail, impaired judgement) then all is well.

To me it is /unfeminist/ to imply that women are so feeble to be conditioned into these things and they don't have the presence of mind to make a choice to do something they don't particularly want to, in return for a particular reward. Which let's face it is something we all do to some extent. I'm not giving examples because you'll say "How can you compare X to Y?" and that's not what I'm doing. I'm talking about a general principle.

'sexually frustrated jealous ''

Well in this thread people have commented that they would worry or feel threatened if their partner watched it and one said not having orgasms dont matter much so I think a lot of it is to do with that personally. If you dont want to watch it then dont but all of it isnt bad or unethical as loads of people are willingly (and enjoy) doing porn, making porn and being strippers.

The primark clothes argument was in one of the national newspapers a few years ago as an argument for why people shouldn't be prosecuted for viewing child pornography.

The difference I feel, is that however repugnant it may be to buy a tshirt that you may or not need that may or may not have been produced by a child, teen or adult in horrific conditions, you don't actually see the suffering when your purchase it. You may be, often unknowingly, paying for suffering, but you are not paying to watch it. It shows how dehumanising pornography is that we can compare watching often brutal acts in which you are not only seeing the human it is happening to, but also possibly enjoy it so much that you orgasm, to paying for a tshirt.

I think if some of the suffering was photographed and put on the tshirt label, sales would go down. It is only in pornography that showing the suffering increases sales.

Yes but millyr all porn isnt brutal!! There are loads of lesbian porn, masturbation videos, amateur that you can verify where and who it was made by and chat to them, porn made by women eg ann span etc which is a women porn director that makes porn for women starring women. I could go on as there is so much.

As I said its like saying I wont marry a man because some men rape some women. There is such a wide range this argument is ridiculous.

Agreed with Carmen on this one.

Women are not feeble. You can accuse me of many things, but that is one thing I would never say.

I do think that women, particularly young women now, who have been brought up with freely available porn and very sophisticated marketing and a culture which encourages them to value their bodies above their brains, misunderstand what real freedom and empowerment is. I am honestly not being patronising, it is just we (and I am to an extent too) are so sucked in that we can't see our own situation.

But also, how you or anyone else who puts stuff 'out there' be sure that it won't be seen by children or men who really hate women and use this stuff to fuel this hatred?

Dittany, you miss the point completely.

Of course there's rape and abuse in the pornography industry. It's wrong and it shouldn't happen.

However you can't expand pornography industry out to cover all sexual acts that have ever had an audience ever. There are shades of grey all over the place. Love scenes in movies, consenting adults on webcams.

I object to the concept that all sex on film/stage/cam is wrong.

Dittany - Think what you want but I know many 40, 50 and 60 somethings that have been making porn for years and showing it to others. They are all happily married many for 20 - 30 years + in normal jobs with normal lives. It spans across the age ranges and is something a lot of people enjoy making for people to watch.