Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

[Toadinthehole]

A banal point, but I'll make it anyway. This contract issue raised by Carmen is a red herring. The standard remedy for breach of contract is monetary payment (there are various others, such as cancellation and so on).

There are situations where a contracting party might be ordered to perform what (s)he promised, but they don't include personal services (e.g. painting, performing music, and other things that require the personal skill of a person).

There is simply no way that a court would order a person to have sex to fulfil a contract, even in countries where contracts requiring sexual acts to be performed are legal.

[somethinganything]

have just read most of this thread and TBH feel a bit ill. I've always disliked porn (after being asked to watch it a few times - mostly with my first boyfriend when I was a teenager, he was in his 20s). I think for a time I thought that saying I didn't mind watching it (I was never, ever turned on by it) made me seem sexually liberated in some way. Over time I've found myself feeling more strongly anti it but I hadn't really thought through how many of my sexual experiences have been influenced by porn (the men I've been wanting, on some level, to re-enact it IYSWIM). So depressing. Can't believe it's never dawned on me before. I perhaps need to have a bit of a conversation with DH... Anyway, think this thread is probably long dead now but it's been something of a revelation

[chocolatestar]

What a horrible thing for you to have to see crunchyrog and that poor girl :( At 16 I don't think I would have been able to say anything either.

[CrunchyFrog]

When I was about 16, my first boyfriend and I went to his friend's house. This friend had let another friend use his place to have sex with his girlfriend. The total knobend hid a camera in the room and filmed them, then whenever anyone came over he would do a "want to see something funny?" spiel and put the video on. It was awful, and I didn't say anything, and nor did my boyfriend. I so wish I had done something. The girl in the film was left alone at the end, and was sat on the bed sobbing. .

I guess that is something that happened because these boys watched porn? Now they'd be sharing it on their mobile phones, I suppose.

This thread, and reading Linda Lovelace's story just reminded me of it. I really feel awful now, 16 years later!

[Sakura]

it's a huge feminist issue chocolatestar, especially the way that female sexuality nowadays is distorted to the point that women often reach their twenties not realising sex is nothing like the slapstick images you see on TV (think: Sam in sex and the city) and that porn has nothing to do with female pleasure.
That's why I get annoyed with people saying western women have no problems compared to women over the world. IN lots of other countries, porn is banned (Iran for example, and until recently in China, when google has now pushed its way in). I guarantee that women in these porn-free countries are having a better time of it in bed.

[chocolatestar]

So sorry you can relate, yes dehumanizing is right. It was my first sexual experience and I was very traumatised by it. I still get nightmares. There were often times when he had sex with me that I feel I was not consenting to, I was very passive though. I think I thought that was just how sex was, what I wanted or did not want was irrelevant.

[Sakura]

chocolatestar, I can totally relate to your past paragraph. It's scary, looking back. It's not quite akin to rape ( I have never been raped) but quite close insofar as you know you are not there as a person, in their eyes, you are just an nterchangeable "woman" like those they've seen in porn. Very dehumanizing.

[chocolatestar]

I need to read some books first! You lot are all too clever! Love reading the threads here, I learn a lot.

[Beachcomber]

That sounds horrible chocolatestar.

Glad you have found the thread interesting - there are bound to be other ones as this is a big subject for many feminists. Jump in and have your say next time!

[chocolatestar]

I just wanted to chip in a thank you to posters on this thread which I have been following with great interest. It has totally opened my eyes to this issue. If I had been asked previously I would have probably said something along the lines of consenting adults being free to do what they want to do because that is always what I have heard in the media etc as being a feminist point of view and I hadn't really thought about it that much. This thread has totally changed my mind and really made me think.

I can also see now the impact that porn had on an abusive relationship I experienced when I was younger. He consumed a lot of porn and I know went to lap dancing clubs. I can totally see now how the things he did to me related to the stuff that he was watching and that his treatment of me was reflective of the way the women he was watching were treated. I was just a thing to him, I had no say in anything that happened, if I said he was hurting me he ignored me, same if I said I didn't want to do something, it was like I wasn't there. Reading this thread I can see where some of that was coming from.

[HerBeatitude]

"no it wasn't in answer to that question HB"

OK.

So are you ever going to answer that question then? Or do you find it too difficult to think about why those men find the sight of women being sexually abused so fabulous and lovely that they bring themselves to orgasm because of it? (Wouldn't blame you in the least if that were the case btw.)

[Beachcomber]

From the above link.

"Women may ?chose? to enter the porn industry (assuming you have no problem with the coercion of poverty itself), but once there, she may find she lacks real choice about what happens to her, and lacks choice about leaving.

All the women in the industry have ?managers? (who act more like pimps) who have an interest in having them do more and more extreme acts because they get a cut of the money. They work in collusion with the pornographers to manipulate and coerce the women to do more and more extreme sex acts."

[Beachcomber]

Am just reading this and thought a lot of it relevant to this thread.

antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/2010/02/09/dumb-mra-says-dumb-mra-things/

This is in no way a personal dig in case you are still reading Carmen. Quite a lot of what is in the link is similar to some of the comments made by you and others on this thread. I think the responses are good and worthy of a read, that is why I am posting this.

I do not think anyone on this thread is dumb or an MRA or has an MRA agenda. I do think some MRA stuff has been posted here though - the parallels are striking.

[Sakura]

No.. I think you've elaborated on it. I don't think it's said explicitly in there, but your post reminded me of that passage.

[Beachcomber]

Sexual Politics is great - I read it some time ago but keep meaning to re-read it as i have a rubbish memory. Maybe I picked up my jizz theory from there then.

[Sakura]

Sakura that's very brave of you to answer that question.

I gave up avoiding reality on that trans thread. If you can't even name what's happening, then you can't fight it

[Sakura]

Sorry, it was Henry Miller who did the wife murder/anal rape scene


Mailer did murder his wife, though

[Sakura]

Yes, that is mentioned in Sexual Politics, beachcomber... It's an amazing read BTW
Norman Mailer goes into great detail in his murder and rape scene as to why penetrating an anus is better than a vagina and it's something along the lines you mentioned.

Dittany mentioned he murdered his wife in real life too...

[Beachcomber]

That sounds grim Sakura.

I just had a thought about the whole jizzing on women thing in porn. I wondered if it has something to do with pregnancy?

I think it is mainly about humiliation/territory marking but the thought occurred to me this morning that it could also be about taking the procreation element totally out of porn sex. I mean in terms of the perspective of the male viewer. If a man sees another man ejaculate in a woman's vagina that is always, somewhere in his mind, going to be related to conception. If the jizz is seen to be going elsewhere, any deeper emotion or that 'sacredness' that we mentioned earlier, goes too - it brings things down to the lowest rawest level sex can have.

I also think the jizzing scenes often have an element of 'you're not good enough for my seed' about them IYSWIM. The bloke won't 'grace' the woman's body with the presence of his precious seed as it were. So he wanks on her face instead which has the added advantage of humiliating her and hopefully getting her to eat some cum (added bonus if she gags on it the bitch!).

Of course there is the visual side too but I think there is also the idea of the man's orgasm being all about him when he doesn't grace the woman's body with the presence of his orgasming cock. Most people do associate having an orgasm in the presence of another person with feelings of intimacy. If there is no body contact then the intimacy goes too.

[Sakura]

Sorry...feel the need to clarify. I don't think being young had anything to do with it. I had lovely experiences when I was much younger than that.
But I think a woman who is young AND in a bad place is going to come accross these guys. Women gain power and sexual confidence with age, even though the media tries to say that women past 25 have gone of the boil.
But unfortunately, the older men get, the more likely it is they've watched porn or gone through a porn "phase" so I found as I got older that men were less likely to be sensitive about women's bodies or good in bed. When I was very young, this wasn't the case at all: men/boys were more in awe of the fact they'd managed to score, and were sensitive and in tune, even one night stands.
So there is no doubt in my mind that porn corrupts men.

[Sakura]

He had a beautiful face and body. I was young... in a bad place.. I'm not going into any more details.

[Sakura]

"Has a sexual partner ever asked to ejaculate on your face?

Has a sexual partner ever ejaculated on your face?"

Yes and yes.
I was going through a bad patch, the guy was heavily into porn.

[blinks]

no it wasn't in answer to that question HB.