Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

I can imagine TBE. It must be difficult to have to justify that to yourself while all the time supressing unease.

I don't mean that to sound patronising, I just think it's really difficult to fundamentally change a point of view on a subject like that. It must have taken a fair bit of soul searching. I think it's brilliant.

lifeissweet - I orgasm everytime I have sex and have from the age of about 16. I expect this s nowadays women expect to be as satisyfied as the men everytime. Watching porn hasnt changed this in fact I think nowadays women expect more satisfaction and it to be more evenly matched than in past generations. I dont see sex as something that is done to me and I first had sex 12 years ago and I am 26 and there was loads and loads of porn out then so I dont really see that much difference nowadays except now it is on the net.

Good for you, Sunny, but I am sure there are women who haven't had your experience. The expectations put on young women by young men now are a long way from when I was younger and it is because of porn on the internet.

You're like a dog with a bone, aren't you?

You answer none of my questions but interrogate me.

You did miss the point completely though by telling me that there is rape and abuse in pornography. I know that and it had nothing to do with any arguments I was making.

Yes but BFE its because of what has happened to her that it has messed her up. Its like saying someone who has been raped and ends up on drugs or as an alcholic is the same as someone who has a normal life and upbringing who occasionally smokes weed and has a glass of wine on an evening. There is a whole range of difference. That is the same as what there is in the sex industry.

I'm confused now.

We are talking about porn and whether there is any such thing as ethical porn.

Where did this expand into all sex in the media?

Well for a start dittany doesnt even differentiate between hardcore porn with violence and rape and page 3 girls!!

"Sex is normal and wishing to watch others have sex is normal and nothing will ever change that."

That might be true, but it is not normal that other people might suffer so that we can get our jollies!

Actually, Sunny, in a way neither do I, because it's all part of pornification. It is all part of making porn acceptable. Page 3 girls and objectification (I would even say hatred) of women is a slippery slope to violence and rape. It is all dehumanising women.

Yes but portofino as I said a million times not all of teh sex industry involves abuse or violence

Sunny - the bits that don't allow the bits that do - that's why you can't separate it into good and bad.

Well lifeissweet thats where we differ I objectify men as such all the time by in the past having sex with them casually or by masturbating/watching them in videos and I love men. All the men in my life have been wonderful my dad, brothers, husband, all my male friends etc so I really dont think me doing this makes any difference. I dont think it does the other way round either. I dont think looking at a naked member of the opposite sex and masturbating over it involves hatred personally.

Good for you, once again, Sunny. Unfortunately women are not objectified by individual men who love them, they are objectified by an entire culture, so it's not exactly comparable.

Well many men are hated by certain supporters of radical feminism does that mean you will stop being a feminist?

Sunny, I don't agree that prostitution has been the biggest industry throughout history. I can't think of a single time period or culture where that has been the case.

But like all aspects of the sex industry, prostitution is more common in some cultures than others. I want us to become like some of the other Western cultures where sex as a performance is comparatively rare.

I don't think you can have any social justice campaign that is based on the idea that we cannot change as individuals or as a culture.

Dittany, to clarify: I do not know what your definition of pornography is. There are shades of grey which some may define as porn and others won't.

I personally believe the word pornography is meaningless because it's just a construct that is often used very vaguely. So I talk about mediatised sex acts which is more descriptive and less emotive.

Let me also clear this up:
I did NOT claim that women being victimised must be feeble. Don't even suggest I did.

I argued that there is a school of thought operating under the guise of feminism which suggests that women do not have the ability to refuse to sign a consent form (extraneous factors such as blackmail and alcohol removed).

This is extremely disempowering and damaging. If we cannot accept that a woman's no means no, we infantilise her.

Feminists do not hate men.

Whilst I normally disagree with Dittany and I do on the surface here, that many women freely engage in this and aren't "exploited" as such, I do stop to think about their motivation now.

Do they ever genuinely enjoy it? (Possible)
See it as a valid career option? (also possible)
See is as a route to "better" things ie actress/star? (very possible)

If you look below the surface, in each of those scenarios you can imagine a point when they WERE taken advantage of. They might see it as "free will" but is it REALLY?

Carmen - it is not infantalising women. Two of the women arguing with you on this thread are extremely eloquent, articulate, well read women who would once have defended pornography. They were sucked in and will admit it. Women may consent, they may sign up to something and not realise that it's sapping away their soul until later. It's not that they are stupid, or feeble, it is that we are conditioned to think that this is acceptable.