Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

[lifeissweet]

Sex scenes in films and on tv are an entirely different situation. They are episodes in dramas where the participants have characters and stories. They are not filmed for the erotic pleasure of anyone else but as part of a story.

The actors involved do not have intercourse. The filming is tightly controlled. There is no exploitation.

[RamblingRosa]

This is a really interesting debate.

I personally strongly dislike porn, the porn industry, and everything it stands for. I believe (although I don't have any evidence and admit that I don't know much about it) that many/most of the women in the porn industry are being exploited. I agree with Dittany that women in the porn industry face worse risks than men of STIs and HIV (and obviously pregnancy). Many are coerced.

On a personal level, DP was really into porn when we first got together but I didn't really realise until we moved in together. It was after DD was born and I caught him using porn that I really freaked out about it and laid down the law, found his porn stash, chucked it out and basically told him he had to stop watching porn or it would be over between us.

Some people might come on here now and tell me that was an over-reaction and what's wrong with men enjoying a bit of porn but it was very clear to me - in my state of PND, struggling with a newborn, struggling with bfing, struggling with a useless DP who could barely drag himself out of bed because he'd been up all night watching porn - that I couldn't be with him if he continued to watch porn in my home. I can't really articulate why very well. I was surprised by my own strength of feeling.

I'm not sure if becoming a mother has strengthened my feelings on the subject. I never liked the idea of porn but kind of accepted that most blokes were into it.

Anyway, I suppose I'm saying that I find this an interesting thread because I've never really thought through the arguments in my head as to why I'm so anti-porn. I tend to agree with Dittany on all of this. However, I have questions like do we include all erotica in our definition of porn? Is it ok if it's the written word, a painted image rather than a photo or a film of real people? Is it just about the exploitation of the women involved or is it about more than that - the objectification of women (whether real or imagined in art)?

Does anyone know about or have views on porn made by women for women? I've read it exists. I don't know what I think about it though.

[EgyptVanGogh]

Comstock Films

Petra Joy

[jenny60]

Yes but they are also so often so uneven; lots of naked women, gratuitous shots of breasts, bums, legs etc...

[RamblingRosa]

Not sure it's true that it's all tightly controlled etc on film sets. There are a few films in recent years where it is alleged that the actors weren't just acting the sex scenes. And then there's the whole casting couch issue and the issue of how hard it is for women to get ahead in the film industry. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a fair few female actresses who had done more than they wanted to on screen because they were made to feel their careers depended on it.
Not saying it's the same thing as the porn industry. Just saying I don't think it's unproblematic.

[Portofino]

Sexual "objectification" exists for both sexes though. Mention Johnny Depp on MN or Mr Darcy diving into the pond and some women are all afluster. Also the Chippendales and their ilk. Are men considered to be exploited in these cases when they are purely seen as sexual objects? So much is down to nature imho.

On the other hand, it is not right that anyone should have to use their sexuality to earn money. I have watched "female friendly" porn in the past. Nothing violent or outwardly degrading about it, but I do realise I know nothing about the motivations of the people involved.

[sunny2010]

'The problem is, sunny, that unless it's stuff you've made yourself, you can never be completely sure that it really is consensual. The people on the other end of a webcam might be doing it for money because they are desperate or because they are being pressured into it by a controlling partner. You ust don't know.
'

Well for a start its free. Loads of the people on there are my friends on facebook and chat to them on msn/phone etc. I think they wouldnt do that if they didnt want to. I know loads of women that are single that masturbate on it as they do it for my husband.

[sunny2010]

'I think that as a society we're in a really messed up place where the default position is to objectify women.

Maybe if everyone would just stop doing that - if there were no Daily Star, or Nuts, or porn of any kind, in about 20 years maybe there would be a point where home-made porn could be ethical.
Maybe.

But right now, where is the line?'

ROFL if you ever think we will be near to a world with out porn. There will be a world without porn when there isa world without drugs which will be never. Even if you ban them it wont make a difference as it is one of the biggest industries in the world.

[lifeissweet]

I think it's a red herring to start on the 'what about men' argument. Men are not objectified day in and day out as part of our culture. Women may lust over some men, but I actually think your examples of Mr Darcy and Johnny Depp are quite good examples of how it doesn't work both ways. Both of those men are seen as attractive because of virtues other than their looks. They also look completely different. There is no such thing as a standard attractive male look that is sold to men thousands of times a day.

Male models and the chippendales with big muscles and tanned bodies tend not to be what women actually find attractive. We are not fed the same messages about men that we are about women. It is just nowhere near comparable.

Yes, objectifying men or women is bad, but it is done to women in a way that has completely taken over our outlook. Our young people are increasingly lost in a world where young women feel the need to show that they are cool because they are promiscuous and young men expect women to be a certain shape and size and have shaved genitals and big, round breasts. Be under no illusion, porn is doing this to us and it is women, not men, who are coming off worse.

[Portofino]

Sunny, you have friends on FB who will masturbate for your DH (presumably via webcam)!!! Now I am not easily shocked but ! Do you know these people in RL?

[MillyR]

One of the differences between Johnny Depp and a porn star is that while both are sexually objectified in the minds of some people, only one is presented to the world solely as a sexual object.

[spiritmum]

Absolutely. lifeissweet. And if we look at the opposite if the Johnny Depp and Mr. Darcy types then it isn't porn stars but film icons such as Maryin Monroe. And of course she had a very happy life, didn't she. Or it's images such as Ursual Andress in James Bond or Bo Derek running through the sea in 10.

Must confess to never, ever getting the point of the Chippendales and their like and wanting them to go away.

Sunny, you may be right about there never being a world without porn. But then people said they'd never be a world without slavery, but pretty much by and large it has been eradicated in this country.

Except in the sex industry of course.

I'm afraid with whoever it was who said that interent pron and the like is designed to eb addictive and obsessive.

Sunny, I have two questions for you. First, how does this affect you and dh having sex? Is it ever just the two of you, or is there someone else always in your head?

Secondly, how would you feel about your dc knowing about what you do?

[RamblingRosa]

I have to admit I was a bit at that too sunny but I didn't want to admit to being such a prude :)

[spiritmum]

I'm afraid I agree with whoever it was. Sorry for typos.

[sunny2010]

Portofino - No dont know them just met them online. I do it to men to and have them as friends on my facebook. I usually watch out of frame when he does it and vice versa. We also do it with couples and have sex in front of them and vice versa. People make us private videos etc. If you like to do it then why not?

It is very popular and there are loads of couples/women singles that do it. Just because something might not be for one person doesnt mean you should ban it. Its like saying ban swingers because I wouldnt do it and someone might be forced, or ban homosexual sex because I wouldnt do it and someone might be forced. Yeah some might be but that doesnt mean a blanket ban on the whole thing.

[Portofino]

I was just thinking if any of my FB friends offered to do that for DH they wouldn't stay on my friend's list for long!

[CarmenSanDiego]

But there's a huge amount of amateur porn out there including lesbian erotica. You cannot categorically say that all porn involves abuse. If one woman or two women want to film themselves and get an exhibitionist thrill out of putting that out there, there is no abuse. They are adults exercising free will and doing something they enjoy.

To say that you shouldn't watch something unless you absolutely know for a fact no-one was in any way damaged or hurt or disadvantaged in some way is just nonsense. Do you know the origins of every single service or product you use?

Finally, where is the line between acceptable acting of erotica or love scenes and pornography? Personally, I've worked in theatre and I find auditions for /anything/ degrading. The whole acting business is degrading. You're judged on your looks, voice, how you move. But what can be done? Men suffer the same thing.

[MillyR]

While we could never get rid of porn, many countries have access to pornography but there are few countries where people watch as much pornography as they do in the US and the UK. So it doesn't have to be this way. It isn't in some sense 'natural' - it is just part of our current culture.

[Portofino]

Sunny - but do you know ANYTHING about these people? What on earth do you search for to find them? I felt a bit "subversive" looking up an ex of mine on FB out of pure curiosity!

[spiritmum]

I remember when the Chippendales first started and I felt more disempowered than I did before, because I wouldn't play along and pretend I wanted to go or found anything attractive in the whole male stripper thing.

Someoen once hired a stripper for my mum which she did not welcome. Suffice to say that the poor man kept his clothes on and legged it pronto.

[lifeissweet]

Has anyone suggested banning it? I thought this is a discussion on how ethical it is - and it's not. What you do with your webcam isn't actually porn - it's more like group sex. That is a whole different discussion and down to your own ethics and those of the people on the other camera.

Porn that is available on the internet, or on DVDs, or in magazines, however, is not ethical.